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Modified Vintage, or High End Modern Technology

What JohnVF said about the Pioneer is something Ive found out about the high tech Denons and JVCs from back in the day:Those complicated drive systems and tonearms scare me at this late date.The JVC I inherited had more bugs than a high school science lab.
Jimmy
 
Again folks, this is a discussion about turntables. Go grind your pseudo science axes elsewhere. Next guy to try it gets 3 days off to think about it.
 
The good news is I do have some fine Vintage tables with great arms that sound fabulous! Can I do better? I think so, and will take the next year to scout out the dealers of the tables I seek, and once it is narrowed down, (and my oldest daughters wedding is paid for :D) I will then make a major investment in a used/demo modern table in the price range I would have never previously considered. By selling all but one of the tables and preamps, I should be able to step to a very nice modern non suspended table capable of mounting 2 arms.

Regards,
Jim
 
Linnophobe, Jim? :)

No I'm pretty sure that I will go Massive, Non suspended, and 2 arm capable when I make the leap. At 62 I anticipate it to be my last main rig table, and will invest appropriately. :thmbsp:
 
No I'm pretty sure that I will go Massive, Non suspended, and 2 arm capable when I make the leap. At 62 I anticipate it to be my last main rig table, and will invest appropriately. :thmbsp:

I hear ya. I've taken on my turntable project too, and when looking at options, I realized that one of the major turntable experiences I have missed out on is a LP12. But that being said, a TD-124 has always pushed my buttons too. :)
You've got almost 20 years on me, but my next table will last a long time too.

I look forward to seeing how your quest works out.
 
Yeah, The TD124 has intriqued me as well, I just have a hard time buying that an idler wheel with direct contact to the platter can have as low a noise floor as a brushless DD, or a belt drive from an isolated motor. I know many say the grunt or musical drive of an idler makes up for the rumble, but I have found through Thorens modification that the key to maximum info retrieval in those decks is a black noise floor.
Regards,
Jim
 
Yeah, The TD124 has intriqued me as well, I just have a hard time buying that an idler wheel with direct contact to the platter can have as low a noise floor as a brushless DD, or a belt drive from an isolated motor. I know many say the grunt or musical drive of an idler makes up for the rumble, but I have found through Thorens modification that the key to maximum info retrieval in those decks is a black noise floor.
Regards,
Jim

I'm more of a believer in the light weight, dissipate vibrations, Rega school (My P9 was an incredible table!), but my buddy has a Garrard 301 with a huge plinth and a Michell technoarm, and it sounds glorious. Noise is certainly not an issue. It compared very well in terms of silence with his magnetic bearing Pro-Ject RPM-10.
 
Here Ya Go

These make for a great project. See pix below.
 

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I can appreciate both of those tables, but I'm not looking for another project. That is why the only true vintage table I would consider is the Yamaha GT 2000 or variant. Those who know me, know I'm not a collector. If it is not getting play it is gone.
Regards,
Jim
 
I can appreciate both of those tables, but I'm not looking for another project. That is why the only true vintage table I would consider is the Yamaha GT 2000 or variant. Those who know me, know I'm not a collector. If it is not getting play it is gone.
Regards,
Jim

I hear you. I build amplifiers. Bought a Pvsane TS66 as a platform to convert to a Eric Kingsbury Music Machine with my upgrades applied. Not being enough, I am building a new SET amp. Of course we are talking TTs here. Get that Yamaha GT 2000. I am only getting started with better TTs.
 
Actually The Answer To This Is Not Straight Forward

Looks like the OP has already made up his mind that a new table is in order, a high mass non suspended type. Actually I own a table that meets that criteria, the Galibier Audio Serac, and actually my previous table was a Teres Audio 225 which was another high mass non suspended table. So I have a small amount of experience in this arena.

Up until a few months ago, I would have been unfaltering in my support for a modern high mass table. Don't get me wrong, I truly enjoy my Serac, it is a wonderful table. The Pete Riggle String Theory 12" wood arm is a beautiful tone arm, and the ZYX 4D cartridge is a fine fine cartridge.

But last year I found a Thorens TD124 in a friends garage. I performed the basic maintenance to it, did some refinishing, and found an ADC LMF2 arm for it. I ran through a few MM cartridges on this table, as it was supposed to be my beater machine for playing rock and roll or pop records. To basically keep the hours off my ZYX.

Well this month I received a Clear Audio Signature cartridge that I had in for retip, and just to verify it worked and to hear it, well I installed it on the Thorens. The ADC is really not the best arm for this cartridge, but it is good enough for the time being. What I found is a very direct and expressive analog rig! There is something enchanting about this uncluttered and intimate presentation, that is different than my Serac, but still as involving. I have been listening to it for better than a week, and it is still very pleasing.

Now there are a few upgrades or updates for the Thorens that might up its performance. I need a new top platter as this one is dinged. I may end up buying the Applied Fidelity aluminum/Delrin mat for this table. Or perhaps the SMH/Tech acrylic platter mat. I do need the upper platter to provide shielding between the cartridge and the iron platter. The stock one appears to do this just fine, so I know it can be done, at least with the Clear Audio. I also should pull the thrust plate for the bearing, and just replace it. I may also consider buying the Applied Fidelity bearing assembly also, which includes a sapphire thrust plate and a ceramic ball bearing. Jim can release the stock ball from the end of the spindle and install the new one. Then comes the question if a higher mass plinth is needed.

Anyways, if one can buy a TD124 in good condition for $800 to $1000, and possibly put a few more hundred in updated parts in it, well the total cost could be $1600 or so. That table may very well go toe to toe with my Serac, which sold for $3.2K and was discontinued because production costs had risen to steeply.

So I cannot say for sure that a modern high mass table is going to outperform a vintage high mass one. I used to think that would be the case, but the Thorens has kind of thrown a monkey wrench in that. I do know that I am going to enjoy the project of sorting out the 124. I also know i love both of these tables, and feel very fortunate to own them. Hope you can find a table that meets your expectations.

Serac%20String%20Theory%20Arm.JPG


attachment.php


Perhaps a table from Acoustic Solid, Teres Audio, Transrotor, or even TT Weights....I her they are building a new idler wheel table.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
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I can appreciate both of those tables, but I'm not looking for another project. That is why the only true vintage table I would consider is the Yamaha GT 2000 or variant. Those who know me, know I'm not a collector. If it is not getting play it is gone.
Regards,
Jim

If I lived in Japan, I would look hard at a GT 2000. Over on this side of the ocean, owning a complicated, 30 year old turntable that no repair shop over here has ever seen, and parts are basically not available, seems too big a risk.
 
I'm glad a pig of your breeding and taste has such kind words for the 124. I just picked up a pristine example for $300, and am starting down the road. Truth be told, my LP-12 was just moved to the closet...

I wanted to point out that you don't need Jim to pull the bearing. It's held in either by grease or by a circlip (depending on year), either one easily pulled. And ceramic ball bearings are about $2 apiece. I have the proper size and a source or two in my notes, I'd be happy to send the info to you.

I may also consider buying the Applied Fidelity bearing assembly also, which includes a sapphire thrust plate and a ceramic ball bearing. Jim can release the stock ball from the end of the spindle and install the new one.
 
My plan is to compromise: KD-500 w/ 'old' technology. Audiomods arm for 'new' technology. The Audiomods arm kit is <$400 shipped. Based on overall statements from both 'camps' this seems like the best approach for competing with <$2-3k new.

Or find a GT-2000 with a crapped arm and put the Audiomods on it. Done for good except for the GT-add-ons.
 
Well, you and I own a TT that seem sonically an exception to all this, the Mitz LT-30, and I am interested in this thread primarily as to where I would go should I decide to take a sensible solid assured step up from this thing.

Hmm, where to start? Well..

First, lets not put a motor right near the tonearm, rigidly attached to a hollow plinth.

Second, lets not put the motor right under the platter, necessitating a hollow box around and everything else that resonantes.

Third, heck, lets isolate the motor entirely from the platter bearing/arm! Good idea, why didn't we think of it sooner?

Fourth. Lets use simple physics like inertia and mass instead of correcting the things that go wrong when you don't with a bunch of ICs and other electronic gizmos that do nothing but once again, lead to a system that's harder to kill vibration and resonance in. Because, you know, a skeletal frame doesn't vibrate because its not there to vibrate, or a solid, mass-damped, system absorbs its own vibration. A hollow shell doesn't.

Fifth, lets pay more attention to arm resonance than we used to. Heck, lets make straight, light, rigid arms. Yeah, they were doing this...but today's arms are way better than much of the mass market ones of yore.

Lets pay more attention to bearings! Maybe even use magnetic or air bearings. Or the strange but ingenious 3-point bearing the WTRP. Some of these ideas are old as well, but they were in high-end tables.

So what do we have? We have an entire turntable industry now that gets to focus on nothing but refining the turning of a record and reading the grooves. Instead of pleasing the most people with convenience and not "looking strange so I won't buy it", instead of making something easily repeatable in manufacturing over 100,000 units. Instead of sticking to tradition because out of the box thinking doesn't sell. Instead of thinking that everything that has been is the best it ever is going to be.

But its all just silly to type when all you have to do is listen. But you have to be willing to do that.

Ok, enough feeding the troll. Off to work on a Sunday. Coffee!!!!
 
Looks like the OP has already made up his mind that a new table is in order, a high mass non suspended type. Actually I own a table that meets that criteria, the Galibier Audio Serac, and actually my previous table was a Teres Audio 225 which was another high mass non suspended table. So I have a small amount of experience in this arena.

Up until a few months ago, I would have been unfaltering in my support for a modern high mass table. Don't get me wrong, I truly enjoy my Serac, it is a wonderful table. The Pete Riggle String Theory 12" wood arm is a beautiful tone arm, and the ZYX 4D cartridge is a fine fine cartridge.

But last year I found a Thorens TD124 in a friends garage. I performed the basic maintenance to it, did some refinishing, and found an ADC LMF2 arm for it. I ran through a few MM cartridges on this table, as it was supposed to be my beater machine for playing rock and roll or pop records. To basically keep the hours off my ZYX.

Well this month I received a Clear Audio Signature cartridge that I had in for retip, and just to verify it worked and to hear it, well I installed it on the Thorens. The ADC is really not the best arm for this cartridge, but it is good enough for the time being. What I found is a very direct and expressive analog rig! There is something enchanting about this uncluttered and intimate presentation, that is different than my Serac, but still as involving. I have been listening to it for better than a week, and it is still very pleasing.

Now there are a few upgrades or updates for the Thorens that might up its performance. I need a new top platter as this one is dinged. I may end up buying the Applied Fidelity aluminum/Delrin mat for this table. Or perhaps the SMH/Tech acrylic platter mat. I do need the upper platter to provide shielding between the cartridge and the iron platter. The stock one appears to do this just fine, so I know it can be done, at least with the Clear Audio. I also should pull the thrust plate for the bearing, and just replace it. I may also consider buying the Applied Fidelity bearing assembly also, which includes a sapphire thrust plate and a ceramic ball bearing. Jim can release the stock ball from the end of the spindle and install the new one. Then comes the question if a higher mass plinth is needed.

Anyways, if one can buy a TD124 in good condition for $800 to $1000, and possibly put a few more hundred in updated parts in it, well the total cost could be $1600 or so. That table may very well go toe to toe with my Serac, which sold for $3.2K and was discontinued because production costs had risen to steeply.

So I cannot say for sure that a modern high mass table is going to outperform a vintage high mass one. I used to think that would be the case, but the Thorens has kind of thrown a monkey wrench in that. I do know that I am going to enjoy the project of sorting out the 124. I also know i love both of these tables, and feel very fortunate to own them. Hope you can find a table that meets your expectations.

Serac%20String%20Theory%20Arm.JPG


image.php


Perhaps a table from Acoustic Solid, Teres Audio, Transrotor, or even TT Weights....I her they are building a new idler wheel table.

Regards
Mister Pig

Thanks for the information and your thoughts. The TD124 with a modern arm is not out of the question, but I'm a bit put off by the long term project aspect of it.
Regards,
Jim
 
I dont wanna step on anyone toes but in my opinion THERE IS NO "BEST OF THE NEW" its all cheap crap that doesnt perform anywhere near as good as the older stuff!
You clearly have not seen let alone heard the better new tables or you could not possibly make a statement like this. Not a chance.
 
I'm glad a pig of your breeding and taste has such kind words for the 124. I just picked up a pristine example for $300, and am starting down the road. Truth be told, my LP-12 was just moved to the closet...

I wanted to point out that you don't need Jim to pull the bearing. It's held in either by grease or by a circlip (depending on year), either one easily pulled. And ceramic ball bearings are about $2 apiece. I have the proper size and a source or two in my notes, I'd be happy to send the info to you.

Wow, you stole that one. I will have to pay $300+ to find an unwarped top aluminium platter for mine if I wanted it to be totally stock. The 124 is every bit as good as they say it is. Mine is a MK I version, didn't see a clip when I had it out. Sure I would love to know the ball bearing information. I saw somewhere in AK that someone had done some work getting sapphire thrust plates also, but don't know where that information is. Might have been mcmorin in his AR projects.

Have fun with your table!

Regards
Mister Pig
 
Thanks for the information and your thoughts. The TD124 with a modern arm is not out of the question, but I'm a bit put off by the long term project aspect of it.
Regards,
Jim

Well as with anything, there are fully restored models out there, but you pay for someone else's work. There are Shoepper upgraded ones, which can cost BIG BIG bucks, but are the Rolls Royce of 124 upgrades. There are also ones upgrades with parts done by a guy named Mirko, who by reputation does good 124 machine work.

Here is an example of a basic upgraded and serviced one

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thorens-TD-...d_Players_Home_Turntables&hash=item2329549459

I did see a 124 with Schoepper updated parts installed all through it, and it went in the neighborhood of $4K, pretty darn pricey.

There are a lot of prebuilt massive plinths too, many found on EBAY of course.

If you want a plug and play 124, they can be had, it just costs a bit more.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
I wonder how the TD-124 would compare to something like the latest Delphi with the new high torque AC motor.
 
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