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More Fun With Magnavox: The 9300 Series

6, I think the 'buck' program applied to the filament voltage. So, needed to 'buck' the PT in order to get the filaments down to a more acceptable level. Then, since the tubes and charts would allow for some higher voltage in the B+, the use of the 5AR4 just allowed the amp to 'up' the available B+ while still keeping the filament voltage under control, plus it removed 1A of 5V current draw AND it also gave the slower start to the filter section while allowing the tubes to warm up and suck some current before it hit the high levels the 4U4 would put to the filter before the tubes started drawing current.

See Dave........ I read it all.........lol. WC
 
I'm lurking this thread as I have the Fishwin P/P 6L6 paraphase project amp on hold and can use any good ideas that may apply to it. One thing I'm concerned with is dropping the screen well below the anodes ca 300V and regulating the 12AX7 drivers at ca 275V supply. Dunno how these ideas integrate with the EFB if I use one in each channel.
I'm too thick headed now to fully follow the thread, hope it clears up soon.
 
I just have trouble getting excited about the prospects of 1A less heater current when one of the two 6v heater supplies is already redundant and tied off to start with. I've run my 9300 amps without bucking and have not had a PT heat issue. And the B+ starting peaks don't go high enough to make me grit my teeth either, just hasn't been a concern even with the higher line and B+ from that. It always seems like it would be a good thing to keep the heater voltage down to nornal but they are good for 7v as designed and when was the last time anyone EVER posted about their heaters blowing from high line conditions. Staying away from the need for changing to a 5AR4 seems to be a better path from all the trouble folks have reported through their use from the ST-70 and all the unreliable new stuff. A 5U4 isn't taxed in the least by the low lowish current draw of the 9300. Since there is a choke in the PS a 5Y3 could probably handle the job, too. I wouldn't go that far but it's within limits.

You make valid points but comparing the use of a 5AR4 in a ST-70 (Where it is bleeding edge) to this is going at a far extreme.

I can understand why Dave took the path he did and perhaps he is designing this AMP to last 50 years rather than 25. Maybe it is a bit overdone but why rain on that ??

I mean what the heck other than spending a few extra dollars are we debating this mod over anyhow ??

Frannie
 
What are you doing? Trying to turn a MAGNAVOX into laboratory spec gear? Come on! It's a Magnavox! It lasted all these years and is working fine. Anyway the B+ has nothing to do with heater/filament voltage. B+ & heaters have their own separate windings and are not connected. Enjoy these amps for what they are. Or build a real amplifier. This fuss isn't nessary...
 
What are you doing? Trying to turn a MAGNAVOX into laboratory spec gear? Come on! It's a Magnavox! It lasted all these years and is working fine. Anyway the B+ has nothing to do with heater/filament voltage. B+ & heaters have their own separate windings and are not connected. Enjoy these amps for what they are. Or build a real amplifier. This fuss isn't nessary...
Somebody needs a hug.

I get it. Its a darn Magnavox. Maybe we should just leave in the Console also.

Not really what your post adds other than telling the OP he is full of crap doing this or something.

Which might be off the mark IMHO.

Frannie
 
I've never had a problem with the old GE 5AR4 in my ST-70 but others like to hot switch them a blow 'em up. And it doesn't take an ST-70 to do that.

Just sayin' that the 9300 B+ is boosted already. I believe the plate voltage I have is about 335 - 340v. I'd look first to the other mods in setting priorities for fidelity improvements.
I think Dave covered most of the "Other" mods and hey I am not getting the up-roar over the 5AR4 vs 5U4GB as its NOT a big deal either way and some people build things differently. Heck do you want everyone to pick apart your multi page detailed mod/rebuild thread over something so minor ???

This is a fantastic thread by a FANTASTIC person who gives away knowledge unlike most around here.

Geez people get a grip. What sort of AK do you want ??

A bunch of look at what I bought or threads like this one with a LOT of freely given info ??

Frannie
 
Just sayin' that the 9300 B+ is boosted already. I believe the plate voltage I have is about 335 - 340v. I'd look first to the other mods in setting priorities for fidelity improvements.

6, I get your point. If you're unbucked plate voltage is already at 340 and you are comfortable running your heaters on the high end of the range than it's all good. I doubt that Dave proposed the 5AR4 switch as a magic elixir in this circuit but rather because it was what was required to get the needed voltage once the bucking winding was employed and an operating point was decided on. I'm gonna try mine unbucked with the stock 5U4 to see where the various voltages land. If the plates are around 340 and the heaters aren't too high I may stop, if the heaters are hovering around 7v then it is my estimation that spending a few bucks to get the filament voltage down to an optimum level is worth it for me. Others may have greater tolerance for those higher voltages.
 
5V4 rectifier should work fine except for sine-wave full-power testing (both channels driven) with a 4 Ohm load.
 
Without using the extra heater winding for a bucking transformer I have a 6.4v heater voltage in my 9303. If it had been higher I would have used it. My house voltage stays pretty steady at 120v. I didn't have a problem with my 175 either.
 
To buck or not to buck, is that really the question?

I think it's okay to disagree and question why something is done or not done on a thread or build like this. It's how many of us learn and push our understanding of the concepts further. I'm far from the iconic expert that Dave is and I wouldnt dane to speak for him, but I'd suggest for those that get offended when individuals disagree with our idols that we're all grown here. As far as I gather, Dave is a self taught and very capable expert in this hobby we all love. Believe me he's shown me, with my adult ADD, far more patience toward my often repeated and redundant questioning than I would.

My point is that at least in my opinion, it's okay to disagree and question the validity of someone's decisions in amp building. We should always venture to maintain civility. We're all here to share and to learn.

Dave is one of several contributors who has grown to legendary status. And rightfully so. But we shouldn't spoil this thread or AK by bickering because someone doesn't agree with one of his choices. There's more than one way to split a phase, or develop a nice smooth B+ or just right heater voltage.

And for a final sidebar, Dave's Maggie builds are so great because they allow people with limited resources (financial, technical or equipment-wise) who can't build "real" amps, to construct real quality gear without breaking the bank. It's a beautiful thing.
 
I'm with Lavane, I think it really depends on the condition of your power transformer and your starting line voltage.
For my application my 9300 still lives in a console. I have an independent power chassis with 2 transformers. One for the amp and one for the rest of the console. For the 9300 transformer I didn't need to buck and I'm just about right. For the console transformer I need to buck because I've got well over 7.3 for that filament.
I used a 5AR4 for the amp section to get the higher voltage I wanted there and used a 6CA4 to provide voltage and amperage to the rest of he console.
 
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The bucking winding thing I would definitely agree depends more on your line voltage. Mine came out a bit hot, but with the bucking winding in effect the heater voltage is a nice 6.2 volts and the transformer runs a little cooler. Its not like it would have gone up in flames otherwise, but it also didn't cost a cent to make it happier. As with all things, your mileage may vary.


Have to say I find it interesting that there is so much argument regarding modifications to something so lowly as a Magnavox console amp. These things rank up there with a Dyna ST-70 in terms of commonality and abundance of modifications. For once, we actually have a set of numbers to go with those mods as proof that they work, as well as a solid explanation of operational theory for why things are how they are in stock form, and why and how it was changed to be better. Whats not to love?
 
Hiya,

I am sorry I got so harsh there but there are a million different maggie amp rebuild threads. This one is just one of the more Unique and detailed of them and its inspiring to me personally.

So take that for what it is and try to understand my "Fan Girl" rant.

Frannie
 
Come on! It's a Magnavox!

Come on! It's available!

The reason there is interest in these amps & mods has to do with the state of vintage gear and what is still out there in the wild. I've been at buying & selling vintage gear since the 80s and see very little "real" product anymore. However, I do see console amps and they are a totally legit place to start if you want to get into tubes. Threads like these are invaluable if you want to extract better performance from them.
 
Wow! Some pretty robust debate! A few points to address it if I may:

1. Yep, it's a Magnavox. The effort was hardly to try and make a Picasso out of it, or imply that it became one. Rather, with so many (if not virtually) all of these units now being used outside of their original habitat, the effort was primarily aimed at making it be the best it could be for what it is, within its newly re-purposed use application and operating environment. Since so much of that changed when it morphed into its new service duty, the effort then was one of helping the basic design adapt to its new surroundings and responsibilities. For me personally, I was simply trying to fulfill a request from fellow AKer Kidmoe regarding the wide spread love for the 9300 series of amplifiers, honor my end of the deal we struck, and produce an end goal wherein we both helped the AK community in the process. In the end however, its still a Magnavox, with the same tubes, chassis, transformer set, and circuit topology. And there's a reason for this: I have always felt it is important that when a device is modified for improved performance, that as much of the original essence of that device is maintained. That was a guiding principle with this project, as it has been with all the modification projects I've offered to the AK family, Magnavox, or otherwise.

2. Operating with EFB, the modified amplifier draws only 90 mA under quiescent conditions (less than the original design), which improves even further on one of Magnavox's original design goals for the unit: extended tube life. At full power output (15.5 watts/ch) into 4 ohms with both channels being driven, this current level (basically) doubles to 185 mA . I have found that even the JJ GZ34 -- which has a dubious reputation at best -- does just fine at the voltage and current levels that most 6BQ5 stereo amplifiers operate at. Their failure record multiplies exponentially in higher voltage and current level applications.

The primary reasoning for changing to the 5AR4 tube was to eliminate the B+ surge at turn on as produced by the 5U4. With today's higher line voltages, this surge reaches about 425 volts. With the 5AR4, the surge is completely eliminated, while the tube's lower internal drop also acts to maintain the same B+ voltage produced after bucking, as is produced by the 5U4 without bucking (based on the current draw of the original design). For the majority of folks who operate these amplifiers into an 8 ohm load this this is important, as it allows the modified amplifier to produce at least as much power (actually slightly more) as the unmodified stock design does into that compromised loading arrangement, while maintaining sane heater voltage levels at the same time.

3. Unless there were different power transformer manufacturers, I would be surprised at those finding a reasonable heater voltage with 120 vac (or more) applied directly to their amplifier. In both this and the previous (8600) Magnavox project, heater voltages were found to be uniformly high, causing need to address it. Of course, the installation of in-rush current limiters will reduce the need for the bucking connection.

4. While need for the bucking connection centers on the heater voltage produced, the ultimate goal actually has little if anything to do with the life of the heater itself. After all, the heaters of modern vacuum tubes rarely fail, except in those tubes used in a series string that is powered directly from the AC line (i.e., the All-American Five radios). No, the real goal of the bucking connection is to produce the optimum cathode temperature within the tube: If the heater voltage is too high, it will act to accelerate the demise of the cathode, and also cause some of its coating to boil off and deposit itself onto the next nearest element: the control grid. This in turn promotes reverse grid current issues which can then cause a tube to runaway with itself when operated near maximum dissipation levels. In this project, the tubes are operated nowhere near maximum dissipation under normal use conditions, so reverse grid current issues are not a concern in the modified amplifier. However, even if those design issues aren't present, the damage (cathode material boil off) within the tube is still occurring in most cases if a correction is not made. Why subject your tubes to that environment if you don't halve to? The bucking connection then is a real tube life saver -- but not for the element it directly addresses.


The combination of the bucking connection and 5AR4 rectifier tube allows then for all elements of the tubes to operate at optimum temperatures, without any loss of performance in the process, while adding EFB to this mix then (among other things) extends tube life to well beyond that offered by the original design -- even when operating from its intended design center AC line voltage level.

Dave
 
Dave, one other thought on excess heater voltage- I've had cases, where running too much heater voltage, actually changed the operational parameters of the tube (transconductance, gain, etc), to the point where it threw off the circuit operation parameters enough, to cause oscillation and microphonics, when the same tube at the nominal heater voltage, worked fine.

This obviously would have more effect in an extremely-high-gain situation (like a phono preamp that uses feedback RIAA), but no circuit is categorically immune...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
Ya know (Andy Roony)...... the one thing I 'appreciate' in many if not all of these DG 'mods' are the leanings toward what I'd call the 'conservative' side of things. By that, I mean literally the 'conservation' aspect of 'protecting' the device. From what I generally see, 'most' of these projects include not only a targeted performance 'improvement' factor, but they also address potential areas that can be problematic and detrimental to the long-term reliability of the unit.......it's 'future life-span' as it were. I 'get' the 'plug it in, turn it on, and enjoy it!!' approach..... but 'tweaking' is fun! That's why those of us that do it, do it! Like Fern said....no one is holding a gun to our head and making us do any of this! But, 'tinkering' with the guts of these things is, for many, far more enjoyable than going and beating a little white ball around acres and acres of land, just to see if you can drop it in a hole here and there........while spending $50 to $100 just for the privilege of being able to do so! So, 'Thanks Dave!!' I'll learn from my readings here, employ what I can on my own 9300..... 'grow' from the experience, and NOT get frustrated by the little white ball!
 
Just got my parts in and I'll be sharing this info with my tech who is a tube guy at heart and looking forward to rebuilding my 9302-10. I'll be sharing the info gleaned with him

Great thread!!! I understand barely any of it but I can tell their is wisdom, passion & knowledge being shared.
 
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