New 2 channel gear from Yamaha

[restorer-john]

Come on guys, the reason is simple, numbers sell and the marketing department wanted higher numbers, even at the expense of an exponential increase in THD. Probably the same guys from the HT section. "that amp will never sell- it needs to be at least 120 watts or more" Actually, their own figures suggest the amp is pretty close to the wind at 90 watts as the dynamic (toneburst into 8 ohms isn't that much higher). Personally, I am disgusted with Yamaha for putting a 10% THD result in what is supposed to be a 'breakthrough' amp. 10% is not high fidelity, never was and never will be- it is an utter joke. Yamaha is a highly respected company and a distortion spec like that would have been laughed out of ANY showroom in the 1960s/70s and 80s. Even Harold Leak had his famous point1 (for .1% THD) amp in the late 1960s. Call it a 90watt per channel, $2000 amp because that is what it is. Certainly not destined to become a classic that's for sure.

 

[Yamaha1]

Well let it come to the market and let one of us AKers buy it, only then we will have the real assessment, condemning it before its very launch is unreasonable in every sense.

 

[Dogman]

Great discussion guys!!

A couple of observations and questions:

There are disparate views of the "quality" of this amp, but I'm sure that all would agree that Yamaha's direction is refreshing - great looking audio gear, and not all that bpc HT stuff!

I'm surprised that no one mentioned the similarity of this offering to the late 80's gear - Mx-2000, AX-2000, etc. (see pic). I love the look of this new gear, but must confess the 80's stuff is even more appealing visually to me (who knows sonically?).

Does anyone know if this amp is a Japan only unit, or if it might be available in North America? I would love to check out these units up close and evaluate the sound.

I have some of the Pioneer Elite gear - M90, C90, F91 - and when I compare the specs it is interesting to note that my mid 80's amp is rated at 200wpc at 8ohms with .003% distortion which is far lower than the new Yamaha unit. Weight is virtually the same at 50lbs and both have separate power supplies for each channel. The Pioneer boasts 125db SN ratio which again is much higher than that of the new Yamaha amp.

My 20 year old amp seems to stack up very well to the new Yam amp spec wise, but I guess it's all in the sound!

 

[himm37]

I'm actually surprised it took this long! I've been saying for a long time Audio is going to make a BIG comeback, there's signs all over the media. I'm glad to see it was done with quality in mind, not JUST capitalizing on the names.

 

[Yamaha1]

The late 80s Yamaha MX-1000 is rated at 260rms at 0.005% distortion with a SNR of 128dB. Its not about specs, Yamaha can blow all in that terms, in that case the MX-D1 is even lower at 0.0005%, its about sound and as I said in my previous post, there has to be a reason for this kind of design and only when this amp is auditioned would it reveal its true nature, speculation won't get us anywhere.

 

[Mark B]

I've had a hard look at the internal brochure shot and I have the following comments:

The main preamp board is COVERED in surface mount and one end if it is exposed horizontally to the atmosphere- great if you live by the sea or are a smoker. Surface mount and dust/dirt/moisture are a nightmare. Hopefully a cover will be on the production units.

The unit is micro controlled and yet there is no mention of a cpu shutoff system to make the unit truly quiet. Notice the 'diagnostic port cutout in the front panel top edge for those who thought it wouldn't have a micro.
Personally I hate audio gear with a computer in it. Remote can be done without a micro and so can protection so why use it? Because it is cheap.

The toggle switches look like bent aluminium plate, not solid. see the pic. Now that is cheap, unless it is a prototype and I will forgive them..

There is a missing regulator/heatsink on the power supply board (see the pic) which suggests there is another 'higher spec' model, most likely a D/A equipped model in the pipeline or already available in Japan for home market sales only.

I would bet the small controls are plastic, the volume and selector aluminium, and the toggle is aluminium plate over plastic. The side panels appear solid which is a nice touch.

Those DEC speaker relays are notorious for trouble- in premium Yamaha gear they used to tie two small magnets either side of the relays to dampen them- notice no magnets.

It is a nice looking unit, I'll give them that, but $2000?? Come on. $899 maybe but that is pushing it. At least it looks like it 'might' be coming out of a Japanese factory.

Come on get real - when did Yamaha ever put out a piece of gear with bent sheet aluminum for switches? When I buy one I'll take some pictures for you. That said, Yamaha is really making a hash of the marketing for this amp.

 

[Yamaha1]

Tell you what, I would rather be paying Yamaha $2000 for this than for any Arcam, Cambridge, Rotel or Krell junk which offer way less in terms of sound or quality for the money charged but yes, they do offer snob appeal and the satisfaction of being suckered by hype.

 

[gusten]

If we look at the spec between 20-20kHz at 90Watts at 8 ohms.

These are in fact extremely good on the paper,and if they are in reality true,we are most likely looking at a top amp.

We have seen such figures on quite a few amps on the paper,during many years,but most have of course not been true.Let´s hope these are.
A distorsion level below 0,01%THD at 20kHz at tells us a lot.

I would have preferred 200Watts instead of 90 and not a balanced design,but still.
120Watts at a distorsion level of 10% is a very ignorable figure and has nothing to do with normal performance.At that point the amp has already started to clip.
/gusten

 

[Yamaha B-2]

It is odd they would put in the spec.

However, I wonder what the distortion specs would be on many of the favorite vintage amps when driven to almost 40% more than the normal rated output? That 10% might look pretty darn good by comparison.... :scratch2:

When EW recapped my 100wpc B-2 amps and had them on the bench they would put out 150+ (that's 50%+ if I did my math correctly) at around .01% THD. At the rated 100wpc the THD was at the resolution of his test gear. Yamaha could have easily done so again. But, for whatever reason, has chosen not to. Feel sure that my A-2000 will do something similar to the B-2. Has anyone had EW go through a B-2x for them? What were the results, if you did? Basically the same amp as in the A-2000.

Appears that the 'old-line' Japanese companies may be starting to get back into the 'high-end' with integrated amps. Pioneer now has a similar offering: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=133383. Hopefully, we can look for something from Sony, Kenwood (does it still exist) and others. Marantz (owned by the same company that owns McIntosh and Denon) has a few, but they are priced at a much higher level.

 

[restorer-john]

Yamaha B2, the B-2x has one thing in common with the new 2000 and that is the manufacturer. 170 watts per channel at 8 ohms and 0.002% THD for the b2x as opposed to 90 watts at 0.02% for the 2000. Not only that, the B-2x is a completely different topology animal altogether with a class A low power complementary amp and a class AB power stage in a differential 'bridge' arrangement, driven by a low voltage class A supply and a high voltage class AB supply. The B2x is a wonderfully overcomplex attempt to do something different and Yamaha succeeded- they sounded good. They even lasted quite well and look really serious. In short, the 2000 is nothing like a B2x, i have no idea why you think it is.

 

[restorer-john]

B2, do you mean an AX-2000?

 

[Yamaha B-2]

restorer-john - suggest you jump off that 'high-horse' and read my post more carefully. I stated quite clearly the A-2000 and B-2x. Not the A-S2000 and B-2x.

Edit: You are typing too fast for me. I see you've read more closely. No.......I mean the original A-2000, which was based on the B-2x. Have posted several pic's earlier in the "Show Us Your Yamaha" thread in the Vintage forum and t-r-m has posted additional info. It is based very closely on the B-2x and I was wondering if anyone (primarily EW) has done any testing of the B-2x to compare its headroom, etc., to the current spec's from the A-S2000.

While I agree that Yamaha could likely have done better, based on the parts that are available today and the economic climate, etc., which we only have our own micro view of, I think they probably have done about as well as we could hope for. While I would wish for better, I won't hold my breathe. And will reserve judgement until I have the opportunity to listen to one.

 

[EricC]

What new inegrateds represent a better value in the price range?

Care to comment John?

Your posts in this thread come off as rather trollish (is that a word?) to me since none of us have even heard it.

 

[Yamaha1]

Yamaha's history in general based on their offerings, specially their TOTL is good enough to say they won't disappoint this time either, I am very much interested in that SACD player as well, now Yamaha needs to re-introduce the NS-1000M in a newer guise, beryllium drivers included of course.

 

[OvenMaster]

I think the amp price is more than reasonable if you account for inflation.
Example: A CA-1010 (100wpc) sold for US$695 new. With inflation, in 2006 that would be US$2377.79.
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/
So. An MSRP of $1999 today for a new 90wpc Yamaha, with hopefully the same sound quality as the CA series is not out of line. Not in my book. No, they're NOT going to be built the same as 30 years ago. Design and construction techniques, as well as components, have come a long way over 30 years. Some good, some not so good. But 50lb still says something. I'm surprised and happy they're even offering this amp in the first place.
Perhaps Yamaha's been lurking on eBay and discovering how people still want the older gear? Lord knows they still get requests for service manuals and owner's manuals.
My two centavos.
Tom

 

[the-real-mandak]

I think you guys are reading the numbers wrong.

The 10% THD I belive is a standard reading to show the headroom, the reading is NOT about the THD, BUT about how much power the amp delivers @ 10% THD.

The "old time" reading I see for the new amp on Yamahas hompage is 0.01% THD 90W@8ohm RMS (the brosure restorer-john posted sayes 0.02% witch must be an error).

About the A-2000; The power amp part is the same design as the B-2x, this design was only put in 3 amps; the B-2x, A-2000 and MX-10000 (in the MX-10000 the normal class A is replaced with the HCA circut, but the general design is the same).

restorer-john: THX for the pdf.

 

[RaymondLeggs]

Somethings not right.. Where are the VU meters? :headscrat

 

[Dogman]

Does the AX-2000 share any DNA with the A-2000? They do look quite similar.

 

[Yamaha1]

AX-2000 is on similar lines with the excellent MX-2000 and CDX-2020 series, its HCA design integrated amp built like a tank.

http://www.thevintageknob.org/YAMAHA/2000SERIES/2000SERIES.html

 

[RadShak1251]

Bet it sounds saweet with just the right type speakers!:yes:
Doubt many companies would follow Yamaha's lead as the sales would be dissapointing here in the US I would assume. Too bad:thumbsdn:

Maybe these new retro-ish *two* way Dynaudios with 10" woofers would work.....