Open Baffle Epiphany!
- Thread starter cptnCanada
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joespride
Super Member
Sounding quite nice, Love the Band.......................I like trying to find the various tracks that Steve at Decware uses for his Video demo's.........Flooting Grooves, Mibrations is quite good, Lot of movement in the stage nice wide, deep image with great Bass................Sounds Phenomenal on the Lii OB
joespride
Super Member
I have seen a couple posts where folks are adding a smaller FR driver (Lowther & the like) to the Lii F-15 drivers in Open Baffle designs. I have been very happy with my Spatial X-2 clone design but curiosity always seems to get the better of me. Having played with a sort of omni directional OB in the past I thought why not. Last night I simply sat a pair of Omega Hemp 8" drivers on top (wired in parallel) of my existing baffle. Sound stage seemed to improve and the Highs may have been better as well. (It was a short lived test) today I made a pair of temp mounts, and later today after my son is done with home schooling. I plan to do a more critical listen. Not sure the mono block Sean Casper 45 amps can stand the added load with higher volume.......
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DesertRatt
All Bark, No Bite!
Nice! Which of the Lii 15s are you using there?
To me, I just can't see how an open baffle design could create stellar soundstage/imaging with all that sound from backsides bouncing around the room in every which direction which may or may not be in phase with the first wave you hear, but is certainly later in time.
Maybe this is the attraction to some people (some people like the sound of the Bose 901), but I prefer pinpoint imaging. And working with the Heil, I find the more I remove the rear wave, the better the imaging becomes.
Unfortunately, soundstage and imaging are not well conveyed in videos. If there are any OB setups in the Orange County, CA area, I would love to be shown that I'm wrong. Of course you would also be welcome to come by and hear my wares.
Maybe this is the attraction to some people (some people like the sound of the Bose 901), but I prefer pinpoint imaging. And working with the Heil, I find the more I remove the rear wave, the better the imaging becomes.
Unfortunately, soundstage and imaging are not well conveyed in videos. If there are any OB setups in the Orange County, CA area, I would love to be shown that I'm wrong. Of course you would also be welcome to come by and hear my wares.
joespride
Super Member
Im not in Ca. But I can tell you I have had HORN systems like Oris Orphean, Edgar Horn Titans, all the Klipsch Heritage line up, as well as others and OB sound stage is simply "BETTER" I am a sound stage WHORE and will not rest till I have a solid center image and super width and depth...........The reason " All that sound from the backside bouncing all around the room" is a non issue is because the speakers are spaced far enough away that its a non issue. My particular case my drivers are 45 inches away from the front wall and 38 inches off the side walls.
When I first started looking at OB I was a sceptic as well, Once heard in a decent setup there is no escape. I was amazed by the Bass in particular. Its super easy to test. Get a pair of cheap drivers mount them to a board and play music. set far enough away from the walls and you will see / hear the benefits. I have a friend that has the $$$ to own any speaker he chooses, He used to run with the big boys Wilson & the like. I had a 15" H-Frame with a Tangband 1808 up top................BLEW His MIND....................He went crazy bought out the existing stock of EP, he now has a pair of Lii Lionidas he got from me.
I use the F-15 I prefer its full organic SQ...........I have tried their Fast 15, F-18, Fast 8, Fast 10, Crystal 10, Silver 10, a few lowther drivers, the AN Classic 15 and a few more. The F-15 is just perfect for my tastes. Paired with the Eminence alpha 15 for bass aug Crossed in at 150 hz. and set out of phase with the F-15. Its almost heaven. With the right amplification and Pre and source. Things can get scary real.............I used to pretend to play drums had a nice DW kit. IMHO this setup can reproduce Drums better than anything I have heard
Mounting the Omega hemp as I did seems to have solidified the sound stage even more also picked up some micro detail and dynamics, I am so very tempted to search out another pair of lowthers to poke up there now
kevintomb
Well-Known Member
For every perceived advantage to OB speakers, there is a down side that is equal and opposite.
If there were only positives by now speaker manufacturers would be making them in droves.
The simplicity of constructing them does appeal to some DIY builders with more limited abilities.
I think the biggest downside, is many read about them, and infer that they need no crossover and are simple to do, when in reality, the full range speakers often have other issues, that need taming, and its a pain to deal with not only the bass cancellation but the frequencies where the baffle is additive in nature, and creates a huge bump in response.
If something seems to good to be true.....
My take, on OB, it is not widely popular for a very good reason, but I can for sure see "Some" advantages to them, if one is able to ignore some negatives.
I have big JBL/Altec horns, and cones, and Heils and I think that typically most horn speakers throw a poor soundstage/image. I think that time and phase alignment are very important for the best imaging and unless the signal is processed, these are not a horn's fortes and I don't even listen to these speakers anymore.
Maybe I need to listen to my Big Red Supers more as the Altec 604E2s certainly image differently than my JBL L200/300s and I think their one-off electronic crossover may be time-aligned. But they are set up in a different area and the seating is not so good.
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AudioGMan
Well-Known Member
I’m working on a hybrid OB pair that uses a 10” woofer from a Realistic Optimus-21 in the original sealed enclosure minus the original mid/teeeters and they will be lying on their sides with Minimus-7 mid and tweeter on a 18” x 22-1/4” open baffle portion sitting on top of the horizontal Optimus-21 and be tilted back 5°. The tweeters will be 25” from the floor with the 4” mid right under them and all drivers will be 1-1/2” off center and mirror imaged. The crossover will be LW 12dB/octave with crossover points at 200Hz and 2.5kHz. I coated the 10” woofers with “The Wet Look” and applied foam sealer to the original foam surrounds. I also stuffed the cabinets with polyfill to lower the Qb. The 4” M7 woofer should handle the 200Hz crossover point since Fs measures around 75-80Hz. I measured their Qts around .55. Should be interesting to hear Minimus-7s in a way other than the original constrictive cabinets and a better crossover. I’ll post pictures when I’m done.
joespride
Super Member
No such thing as a perfect speaker, They ALL have their strong and weak points............................My Full range drivers have no Crossovers Never do. I have come across some terrible supposed FR drivers unlistenable to me. I have also found some sublime......................Baffles are quite simple to build IMHO, A Little reading goes a long way.............For every perceived advantage to OB speakers, there is a down side that is equal and opposite.
If there were only positives by now speaker manufacturers would be making them in droves.
The simplicity of constructing them does appeal to some DIY builders with more limited abilities.
I think the biggest downside, is many read about them, and infer that they need no crossover and are simple to do, when in reality, the full range speakers often have other issues, that need taming, and its a pain to deal with not only the bass cancellation but the frequencies where the baffle is additive in nature, and creates a huge bump in response.
If something seems to good to be true.....
My take, on OB, it is not widely popular for a very good reason, but I can for sure see "Some" advantages to them, if one is able to ignore some negatives.
Now if 1 is speaking about a measurement, graph, etc..... I personally have never heard a measurement and I frankly could care less if one tells me I should like or dislike a driver, or a baffle. I have and will allow my ears to make those decisions. I think they are doing alright They make me happy and I have had some folks with ears much better than mine try to get my help with systems and told me it was the best they had heard.............I felt that was high praise coming from a blind musician
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kevintomb
Well-Known Member
eschewing measurements can work to some degree. But I have never seen a truly great sounding speaker "Designed" solely by ear.
The reason being, human hearing can detect a lot, but it can also gloss over many imperfections and get "Used to them", where combining measurements with listening and back and forth, always results in a more accurate sound.
I have designed DIY speakers (years ago) and thought they were sublime.
Several years later took measurements, and slightly modded crossovers etc, and somehow they then sounded even better.
To avoid measurements will only get you part of the way "there".
joespride
Super Member
You are of course ASSUMING no one can design by ear and we all know what ASSUMING can lead to.........
Im Fine with part way there if I like what I hear, I am not looking for perfection, I am looking for what "I" think sounds good. If others happen to like it thats great. If they dont I have no problem showing them the door.
If someone could actually build a speaker with a perfectly flat response, (none of this plus or minus 3db bull$#!+ that most speakers brag about) would you fall in love with that speaker? Hell no! Just as no speaker has the perfect frequency response, the same goes for individual ears. My half deaf mother certainly doesn't hear things the same as my teenage daughter. Chase the perfect sound all you want, and bless your soul if you ever find it. Bet it won't stay with you forever.
That's irrelevant. When they both hear a real guitar, or saxophone, or anything else, they're both listening to the same thing. A loudspeaker reproducing that guitar/saxophone/whatever perfectly would sound right to both your mother and daughter because it would sound like what they originally heard.
joespride
Super Member
Anyone running the Lii F-15 in Open Baffle, You might consider running a good Push Pull amplifier on them. The performance is astonishing I was blown away last night. The system sounded like I was at a concert. With the right amp the F-15 scales dramatically, Dynamics and Bass can get SSSSOOOOOOOOO much better with more power.........
I am using a NOS VRD amplifier, tubes in the amp are a pair of Mullard 5ar4 Rectifiers, a quad of the Russian 6p3s, a pair of Mullard 12au7, and a pair of RCA 5751...............
Color me HAPPY !!!!!!!!
I am using a NOS VRD amplifier, tubes in the amp are a pair of Mullard 5ar4 Rectifiers, a quad of the Russian 6p3s, a pair of Mullard 12au7, and a pair of RCA 5751...............
Color me HAPPY !!!!!!!!
MisterDK
Addicted Member
Anyone running the Lii F-15 in Open Baffle, You might consider running a good Push Pull amplifier on them. The performance is astonishing I was blown away last night. The system sounded like I was at a concert. With the right amp the F-15 scales dramatically, Dynamics and Bass can get SSSSOOOOOOOOO much better with more power.........
I am using a NOS VRD amplifier, tubes in the amp are a pair of Mullard 5ar4 Rectifiers, a quad of the Russian 6p3s, a pair of Mullard 12au7, and a pair of RCA 5751...............
Color me HAPPY !!!!!!!!
Haven’t yet as my baffles aren’t built but planning on using my Harman Kardon Citation V.
MisterDK
Addicted Member
Hope it’s okay to ask in this thread..
I finally bought a pair of new F-15’s - the regular ones, not the newer “Fast”. I’m going to build some open baffles for them but due to room constraints, they need to stay small. I’ll also be using a pair of subs with these, BTW.
My baffles are coming from a rubberwood (?) table top that someone tossed and they’ll measure 29” wide by 23 tall.
Question: will it be any problem to have these 6” wider than they are tall?
I can’t imagine it will but thought I’d ask you all..
Thanks, Duane
I finally bought a pair of new F-15’s - the regular ones, not the newer “Fast”. I’m going to build some open baffles for them but due to room constraints, they need to stay small. I’ll also be using a pair of subs with these, BTW.
My baffles are coming from a rubberwood (?) table top that someone tossed and they’ll measure 29” wide by 23 tall.
Question: will it be any problem to have these 6” wider than they are tall?
I can’t imagine it will but thought I’d ask you all..
Thanks, Duane