I suppose that if the needle is small enough and the record isn't moving, it's possible to touch the bottom of a groove, at some points on the record. Just a WAG.
But while the record is spinning — that seems kinda hard thing to do.
Record wear article
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But while the record is spinning — that seems kinda hard thing to do.
RayParkhurst
Active Member
Not really that much, and there is a reason for it happening so fast...
Many of the "advanced" shapes such as the ML, VDH, FG, etc are literally designed to "reach deep into the groove". In other words, they are designed to be almost touching bottom even when new, so it takes relatively little wear to push them all the way there.
@cafe latte retips with the MR profile, which he says has a wider contact span at the bottom of the groove. I'm hoping to see and test one of these in the future, perhaps after the 740xML shows good performance with no damage. A wider contact span will give a longer life before bottoming.
Record wear has been studied, many times. Damage isn't at question, how much damage is. I never said or meant to imply you won't do any damage. It's about minimizing. We've come a long way since steel needles.
Prolly proper cartridge and tonearm alignment, and keeping the LPs as clean as possible are the best ways to minimize wear. At least for the typical end-user. Right?
Oh, I do buy Good Mojo powder. It can't hurt.
Spinning45s
Active Member
I recall reading sometime ago about a warning on microline styli. Can't recall the source, but it did say they were damaging.
I've found it's best not to worry, just properly store the records, keep them clean, use a carbon fiber brush before playing, and periodically check the stylus.
I've found it's best not to worry, just properly store the records, keep them clean, use a carbon fiber brush before playing, and periodically check the stylus.
Maybe this is because finer stylus tips require a more precise alignment. Conversely, a misaligned ML tip could be more damaging to the vinyl grooves than a less-fine elliptical tip.
I'm really pulling stuff out of thin air now. It's an interesting topic, but really not much you can do except align as best as possible and not go 25 years between changing tips.
I think some inaccurate information is being propagated here. The ML profiles are not more prone to damage in less time than conical or elliptical profiles just the opposite. And are people forgetting how a stereo cart works? In order for a two channel stylus to offer stereo it can't just follow the grooves modulations in a side to side motion, it has to follow a groove both up and down and side to side, two axis. If a stylus is sitting on the bottom of the groove with the tip dragging the bottom, because the side facets wore down to that point the stylus would be not tracking in stereo it would be bouncing back and forth between the side walls, mistracking and not really playing the any depth of feild in a two-channel mode. The stereo mode needs the stylus to ride the walls both up and down and side to side. If it is dragging the bottom it wouldn't be moving in a four-axis mode. The up and down motion of a stylus is the left and right channel, while the side to side is amplitude. There would be no way a person listening to a system for any length of time that knows his system would not notice when a stylus has gotten to the point of sitting on the bottom of the groove where the facets have gotten to the point that they have worn that much because by then you would have lost that axis that of 45/45 where the cantilever is moving up and down to play the different channels.
If your cart got to that point, you must be Barnie of the movie "Weekend at Barnie's".
If your cart got to that point, you must be Barnie of the movie "Weekend at Barnie's".
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cafe latte
Addicted Member
You are now saying the opposite of what you said on VE, it is really stating to sound like you have an agenda here.
As I said on VE I use a Tom Waits track to test retips which has been played hundreds of times and it not only sounds great but under the microscope the grooves are fine. I took the best photo I could but I dont have the photo gear you do. That said even my pic showed the grooves are fine after hundreds of plays. I have seen hundreds of known hours stylus and many many micro ridge and 800 to 1000 hours is common. Your results were likely the suspension issue that was very evident or one of thr other many variables you cant control.
The suspension issue is not baseless even my own 95ml is way too loose.
Chris
cafe latte
Addicted Member
Who's agendas I wonder..? I am really starting to wonder Ray
Last lap
Active Member
This is one of the reasons, back in the day, I could not wait for CD's to come out. Stylus replacement is an art. And good ones were REALLY expensive. It's why, as soon as I got a record home, I would record it onto a TDK SA tape and that is what I would play all the time. I still have some of those tapes. They play GREAT - still!Just read this article:
A Year-Long Study Catches a Popular Vinyl Stylus Carving Into Records Far Earlier Than the Brand Promised
The damage builds into the grooves permanently and no replacement stylus can undo it later.www.headphonesty.com
Anyone else experiencing problems like this with fine line stylus shapes?
Dave
I also used soundguard. This is all in the 70's.
Last lap
Active Member
I got banned from VE so many times I don't even use their forum at all any more. I just use it for info. Read only, for me...
I do remember your avatar, though.
cafe latte
Addicted Member
If ml were damaging to the groove VDH which have the same major radius and a even smaller minor radius would be damaging to the groove yet they are not. Thry would also wear quickly but thry done. Ogura which have a smaller major radius and the same 3um minor radius would also damage the groove and wear very quickly due to the smaller major radius but again they dont.
There are others with similar minor radius out there like the Paratrace and others, non suffer from what I see premature wear or damage to the groove so this is all a non issue.
Chris
Last lap
Active Member
I haven't put a lot of thought into this, but...usually when stuff wears down tracking something not perfectly linear (grooves are wavy), they tend to get "rounded" edges. So I don't understand how a worn stylus actually wears a record more.
cafe latte
Addicted Member
Grooves twist and turn especially in heavy modulations and a wide worn minor radius wont fit so it shaves the grooves.
Chris
RayParkhurst
Active Member
Yes, this is the conventional wisdom, but do you have any data to show this to be true? I'm doing the studies because no data exists to show either way. Unfortunately I think I got a few bad VM95ML, or possibly all VM95ML have suspension issues, and the results are making MLs look bad. Conversely, the controlled nature of the experiments seem to be making the Conicals last longer than expected, so it all appears upside-down. I am really hoping the VM740xML has great tracking and lasts 2000 hours, but we'll have to wait and see.
What opposite thing did I say? I do reserve the right to learn and improve versus time, and that may make me change a viewpoint, but I rarely flip completely opposite on something. Please point out my 180.
For sure I have no agenda, other than to get to the truth. I am not making any money on these studies, and in fact have refused monetary assistance when it has been offered. I'll admit to gladly accepting donations of new Telarc Pictures records for testing, but I make sure no strings are attached. I've spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours on these studies, and have learned a lot along the way, so if I say something today that is a bit different from a while back or a year back, go with what I say today.
You are the very last person who should be lecturing about an agenda, and any criticism from you regarding ML's must absolutely be taken with a grain of salt due to your strong conflict of interest in these matters.
I know this is from a re-tipper but they have been around a long time, and most of the info in this article has been from all I have read to be pretty close to other manufactures. And they were the factory service guys for B&O MC carts.
Rember the very reason the more exotic cuts were developed were to be able to trace quad records high frequencies and not wear those minute modulations out like an elliptical cut would.
In the article this is extracted.
Apparently according to Jico (manufacturer of the highly regarded SAS stylus), the amount of playing time where a stylus will maintain its specified level of distortion at 15kHz is as follows:
Some manufacturers have traditionally defined a stylus as being "worn out" when it starts to damage the record... in these terms the figures provided by Jico can at least be doubled, and in some cases quadrupled.
www.sound-smith.com
Rember the very reason the more exotic cuts were developed were to be able to trace quad records high frequencies and not wear those minute modulations out like an elliptical cut would.
In the article this is extracted.
Apparently according to Jico (manufacturer of the highly regarded SAS stylus), the amount of playing time where a stylus will maintain its specified level of distortion at 15kHz is as follows:
- Spherical / Conical - 150hrs
- Elliptical - 250hrs
- Shibata/Line contact - 400hrs
- SAS/MicroRidge - 500hrs
Some manufacturers have traditionally defined a stylus as being "worn out" when it starts to damage the record... in these terms the figures provided by Jico can at least be doubled, and in some cases quadrupled.
Stylus Shape Information | Soundsmith
I haven't changed a thing.
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