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So That's A Decent Direct Drive Table? OK I Will Take It

davidro said:
Are we to allow blatant bestiality here? Ya dirty pig :smoke:

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It's ok. We all have our weaknesses. I assume you live in a place where space is no huge concern like a unit dweller like me. So why not a few more tables eh.
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This is my personal favorite. Girl has got her priorities right. Never thought you would see pig groupies eh?

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This is how I roll.

Peace Out
Mister Pig
 
shelly_d said:
That is an impressive list of equipment. I went to the Vinyl Engine database to learn a little more about your stable, have been a little surprised at what you say about the SP15 and 25. Here is what I learned about the 3 Technics:

sp10 mark II : -73dB rumble, .025% wow and flutter
sp15 -78dB rumble, .025% wow and flutter
sp25 -78dB rumble, .025% wow and flutter

The SP10 is actually 5 dB nosier then the both the 15 and 25, with the same speed accuracy. I believe all of them meet tighter specs then either the Thorens or Garrard but I don't have the specs on those to compare, so that is only a personal opinion without any supporting documentation. In any case, the 2 Technics you tried and moved on from were very fine performers indeed so I have to wonder if it was the turntable you were dissatisfied with or the tonearm/cartridge/preamp that led to your dissatisfaction.

Just speculation on my part here. I'm sure that you will have fun with the SP10 when you get it.

Best of luck with it.

Shelly_D
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It would be interesting to see a more full list of specs for all three. The SP-10 Mk.II has a much larger, more powerful motor than the 15 and 25.
 
Sam Cogley said:
It would be interesting to see a more full list of specs for all three. The SP-10 Mk.II has a much larger, more powerful motor than the 15 and 25.
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The summary pages on VE are inaccurate. From reading the manuals:

SP10 MKII: -70dB DIN 45539B (VE says -73dB)
SP10 MK2A: -86dB IEC98A
SP15: -78dB IEC98A
SP25: -78dB IEC98A

The MK2A is what Mr. Pig is buying, which has the same motor as the MKII. Compared apples to apples, the SP-10 MK2A measures a fair bit better. And, the W&F on the 2A is .02%, not that .005% difference is meaningful.
 
Sam Cogley said:
It would be interesting to see a more full list of specs for all three. The SP-10 Mk.II has a much larger, more powerful motor than the 15 and 25.
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Which is always a source of contention. We are spinning a platter....not running the 1/4 mile. And a high mass one has its ability to self regulate through inertia. So I will have a couple of different drive systems at the opposite ends of the spectrum, the AR XA with small motor and the SP 10 with the big kahuna. Be interesting to see how it all plays out. but I think a lot more comes into play in terms of sound quality rather than motor size...and even speed stability....although the later is certainly an important aspect...but just one of many.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
Hi Mr. Pig,

Are you kind enough to able panasonic re-produce the legendary technics for the masses at the super super super low price point?

Just wondering if that's a good idea. Don't do it yet. Any toughts on the consequences of the legendary technics table being in active production to the point that the price is so low that everyone could afford to splurge without sacrifices?
 
Mister Pig said:
While a Technics EPA arm would be awesome to own, I don't think I can find a decent one these days.
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An NOS EPA-100 sold on eBay a couple day ago. I bought an NIB EPA-500/EPA-A250 unit a couple months ago and a very clean EPA-100. The 100 is rather fun to play with - I can't get it to balance for more than a couple seconds.

That said, my first try at an EPA-100 from foxtan was a rather bad experience - the bottom bearing was completely shattered. He took it back, but it was still discouraging.

I've since learned the tell-tale signs that someone's been in to one of these arms, and my last two purchases worked out really well. Most of the 100s I've seen have the signs of being messed with, but the good ones do pop up.
 
JP said:
The summary pages on VE are inaccurate. From reading the manuals:

SP10 MKII: -70dB DIN 45539B (VE says -73dB)
SP10 MK2A: -86dB IEC98A
SP15: -78dB IEC98A
SP25: -78dB IEC98A

The MK2A is what Mr. Pig is buying, which has the same motor as the MKII. Compared apples to apples, the SP-10 MK2A measures a fair bit better. And, the W&F on the 2A is .02%, not that .005% difference is meaningful.
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Hmm...the SP10Mk.II measurement is using a DIN standard, the other three are IEC98A. I wonder if that accounts for the discrepancy. Details of the differences between the Mk.II and Mk.2A are hard to come by.

Mister Pig said:
Which is always a source of contention. We are spinning a platter....not running the 1/4 mile. And a high mass one has its ability to self regulate through inertia. So I will have a couple of different drive systems at the opposite ends of the spectrum, the AR XA with small motor and the SP 10 with the big kahuna. Be interesting to see how it all plays out. but I think a lot more comes into play in terms of sound quality rather than motor size...and even speed stability....although the later is certainly an important aspect...but just one of many.

Regards
Mister Pig
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I have a feeling that if the SP10Mk.II was in some way inferior to other tables, it wouldn't have dominated the broadcast industry for years. They weren't exactly cheap.
 
Whatever the results it will be biased as the pig didn't care for the sp 25 and even if he does like the sp 10 it will be out of a need to be compliant w the status quo. If you are a technics fan theartofsound is the place to be - certainly not AK.
 
Mister Pig said:
I really enjoyed the finish and function of the SP15 and 25. Problem is they just lacked the ability to resolve fine detail in a way my other tables did. They were short on tone and texture of the music. I did get an improvement with the SP 25 when I had the bearing upgraded, and I might consider doing that with the SP 10 if it requires it. But the chassis of the SP 10 is more robust, and you have a higher mass, and more inert platter....so I have really high hopes for it. But I think there is more to table performance than just speed stability and rumble numbers. I agree that objective and repeatable numbers are important, but I am not convinced they describe all aspects of our tables.



That is pretty much it. I had a 50% deposit which should be returned to me, and the 50% I am holding in reserve means I got the lions share of this purchase taken care of.



That plinth was 4" of stacked birch ply with Bubinga wood for trim. It had as much mass as the plinths for my Galibier Serac and the Thorens TD 124. Heck I think the 124 had the stock hollow box plinth at the time. The SP 25 had a stacked birch plinth that was even larger than the one for the SP 15, and I split the arm board off it so it was mechanically isolated.

Not sure what I am going to do for the plinth on the SP 10. The builder in Moldova does stack birch ply with veneers which could be quite nice. I half way am considering something like a 4" thick piece of black acrylic as an option. But doing an arm board is going to be a bit problematic. I would like to fins something in short order so i can get it out of the box and at least in a semi permanent home.

I am looking forward to this, I really want to have a positive experience with a DD table, and from all accounts the SP 10 MK II ought to be the one I can do it with. While a Technics EPA arm would be awesome to own, I don't think I can find a decent one these days. My guess is I will consider mounting a 12" Project EVO arm on this table. The carbon fiber is pretty light in mass, but being a 12" arm it has a bit more material to work with. They seem to be very decent for the money these days. But that is getting ahead of myself.

Regards
Mister Pig
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I guess I misunderstood the construction of the SP-15 plinth. My oops! There is no doubt the SP-10 MkII should be a better table. I'll soldier on with my SP-15 as I need a secondary table that is good for 78 transcription as well and it is hard to better in the job.
 
costerdock said:
Whatever the results it will be biased as the pig didn't care for the sp 25 and even if he does like the sp 10 it will be out of a need to be compliant w the status quo. If you are a technics fan theartofsound is the place to be - certainly not AK.
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In the spirit of Wheel of Fortune

P h _ _ k _ f f

Do you care to buy a vowel? :no:

Mister Pig
 
Mister Pig said:
Which is always a source of contention. We are spinning a platter....not running the 1/4 mile. And a high mass one has its ability to self regulate through inertia. So I will have a couple of different drive systems at the opposite ends of the spectrum, the AR XA with small motor and the SP 10 with the big kahuna. Be interesting to see how it all plays out. but I think a lot more comes into play in terms of sound quality rather than motor size...and even speed stability....although the later is certainly an important aspect...but just one of many.

Regards
Mister Pig
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A powerful DD motor isn't itself a plus, note that most optical digital drives have moved well away from powerful hub motors to reduce drive jitter.

The more powerful motor in theory can correction pulse the platter unless apropriately mass damped and the correction otherwise moderated in-circuitry.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
 
costerdock said:
Whatever the results it will be biased as the pig didn't care for the sp 25 and even if he does like the sp 10 it will be out of a need to be compliant w the status quo. If you are a technics fan theartofsound is the place to be - certainly not AK.
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I'm quite sure that in Mr. Pig's case it has nothing to do with being a fan or not nor the "status quo", just about the results he hears. I can't say as I'm a "fan" of anything in particular either, just trying to find the sound I am seeking. Plenty of Technics lovers on AK, heavens yes. The SP-10 just happens to be the pinnacle of what they made and the rest are bound to be lesser. When they were new the prices reflected that and they continue to do so today.
 
fiddlefye said:
I guess I misunderstood the construction of the SP-15 plinth. My oops! There is no doubt the SP-10 MkII should be a better table. I'll soldier on with my SP-15 as I need a secondary table that is good for 78 transcription as well and it is hard to better in the job.
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Come on - resolve detail? Your SP 15 should be awesome - If the table is operating within spec - and is dead silent - you should NOT notice any difference - this is horse shi?? that the pig will identify some sound difference between the two tables. I do not buy it for one second.

I fell for this nonsense - and bought a very $$ table - and hold onto both tables - and when I compare sound to sound - the only differences that I hear are due to the cart and likely the arm.

My Classic and SL1210 M5g are equal in performance - I compare them constantly and both are absolutely awesome tables - and neither beats the other.

If a table is doing what it is suppose to - then if you can really hear a difference - man -- my hat is off to you as you are listening much more closely than I am - and believe me - I want to believe there is a difference - otherwise something is wrong with the table.

Cheers!
 
costerdock said:
Come on - resolve detail? Your SP 15 should be awesome - If the table is operating within spec - and is dead silent - you should NOT notice any difference - this is horse shi?? that the pig will identify some sound difference between the two tables. I do not buy it for one second.

I fell for this nonsense - and bought a very $$ table - and hold onto both tables - and when I compare sound to sound - the only differences that I hear are due to the cart and likely the arm.

My Classic and SL1210 M5g are equal in performance - I compare them constantly and both are absolutely awesome tables - and neither beats the other.

If a table is doing what it is suppose to - then if you can really hear a difference - man -- my hat is off to you as you are listening much more closely than I am - and believe me - I want to believe there is a difference - otherwise something is wrong with the table.

Cheers!
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Don't get me wrong, my SP-15 is a very good table and in excellent health. I have yet to get it to resolve detail or produce the sort of soundstage I get with my old Ariston RD11s, however. This is not to say that I won't continue trying. There were some experiments done awhile back by an AK'er using an adjustable weight to bleed off vibration from the motor/bearing that apparently did an excellent job. I wish I could recall the thread. I'm not sure I would do it the same way, but it seems like an aspect to be investigated.
 
Again - if the table is operating within spec - and dead silent - if the pig hears some difference and reports some major findings - - I'm just not buying it.

Sure - there are Technics fans on AK - but many put up with the negative comments - I have always argued back (5 plus years here) - and when I did argue with Mr Pig (couple of years back) - I agreed - Ok - I'll buy a 2K+ dollar table so I can hear the major upgrade - we'll I've done that - and to be honest - sure it sounds sweet - but that was no major upgrade - in fact - it sounds about the same - I cannot tell much difference - I'm still young I think at 49(??) - I love the VPI - and certainly consider it my main table - but only because of the beauty - in reality - the Technics is hard to beat - it really doesn't do anything worse than the VPI.

I will not be giving up either table - I love having them so that I can at least understand these so called comparisons.

For what it is worth.

Cheers.
 
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