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So you want to understand Stylus Shapes? Try this!

Speaking of the Denon 103, has anyone listened to the Zu Audio version (which Zu terms Zu/DL-103 Mk II)? I have not, but find their online description intriguing...
 
In reading the history of stylus shapes, It seems the introduction of CD4 recordings brought about the need for more refined stylus shapes (line contact) in order to retrieve frequencies up to 50khz.

Why do I need to retrieve frequencies above the audible range?
 
Buttercup said:
In reading the history of stylus shapes, It seems the introduction of CD4 recordings brought about the need for more refined stylus shapes (line contact) in order to retrieve frequencies up to 50khz.

Why do I need to retrieve frequencies above the audible range?
Click to expand...
Better more accurate tracing of the audible midrange-upper midrange. region
 
Pio1980 said:
Yes indeed!
Click to expand...
Lol, so why are they recording frequencies out of the audible range that are more difficult to trace?
If the higher frequencies are more difficult to trace how does that translate to more accurate tracing of mid range, upper mid range frequencies?
 
Buttercup said:
Lol, so why are they recording frequencies out of the audible range that are more difficult to trace?
If the higher frequencies are more difficult to trace how does that translate to more accurate tracing of mid range, upper mid range frequencies?
Click to expand...
Accurately tracing asymmetrical wave shapes that characterize unique sounds that aren't sine waves. It's about more than just sine wave freq response.
 
Buttercup said:
Asymmetrical wave shapes... hmmm
Okay, thank you
Click to expand...
Most music has asymmetrical wave shapes. The thing to remember is that, unlike digital recordings, analogue recordings don't have an upper frequency limit, per se. Here's the spectrum of a trumpet:

fig1a.gif


As you can see, it extends well beyond audibility. Proper reproduction involves reproducing the entire spectrum, not just the 'audible' component.
 
Buttercup said:
Why do I need to retrieve frequencies above the audible range?
Click to expand...

CD4 quadro offered four discrete channels. To make that work on a two-channel medium, CD4 records contained sum signals (front plus back) in the regular frequency range from ca. 20 Hz to 15 kHz for compatibility with regular stereo playback equipment as well as difference signals (front minus back) partly frequency- and partly phase-modulated on a 30 kHz carrier in the extended frequency range between ca. 20 and 45 kHz - additionally the recording level for the difference signals was reduced by 19 dB ('cause otherwise even the smaller minor radius of the Shibata tips wouldn't have been sufficient for half-decent retrieval), and a noise reduction system (ANRS) was developed for compensation.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
Herb Reichert's "Gramophone Dreams" column in the Jan '21 "Stereophile" has a good write-up on stylus shapes and some inexpensive cartridges. Worth the read.
 
MRL_Audio said:
Good stuff. Kinda overwhelming. There should be tasting party that starts with the conical and moves on up the food chain. Kinda like a wine, beer or whiskey event.
Click to expand...
Clearly you haven't been to my house... My Stanton collection allows just that, starting with very heavy duty, low compliance bonded conical styli moving thru nude conical, bonded and nude elliptical of various sizes, thru bonded and nude stereohedron (Shibata) of both medium and severe profiles, light and heavy tracking. This occurs on both moving magnet and moving iron cartridges, (5 series, 6 series, 8 series, 9 series) some stock, some potted and in wood bodies, etc.

With Stanton it's particularly interesting because all of their styli use sophisticated hardened cantilevers. No they're not all created equal but unlike for example Audio Technica which uses rather basic cantilevers on their conical and bonded elliptical tips, with Stanton you are hearing more accurately just the difference between tips vs a different tip and cantilever. If you consider the application that approach makes more sense. The conicals were not built to be "cheap" rather they were built to sound great on-air and be reference tools where a conical is most useful or actually required.

While it may seem unfathomable to some, different records sound better or worse with different profiles. While the stereohedron 1 (gentle profile Shibata) is the most universal and tends to sound at least "very good" on everything, including old mono recordings, dynagroove and more, sometimes the best stylus for a given record is not the one with the fanciest profile.

For a long time I was a line-contact or nothing kind of person. More recently I've learned how incorrect that viewpoint was thanks to the acquisition of a large collection of used records. Some records in that collection sound terrible or wonderful, depending on the stylus used to play them.
 
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flavio81 said:
Hi, thanks for quoting my thread on stylus shapes.

As the years have passed, i've realized that, perhaps, the cantilever might have a greater deal of influence in the sound than the stylus shape.

However, at the inner grooves, and/or with a worn record, the stylus shape will have a marked influence. Not to mention something that I didn't mention on the thread: for some reason, the conical stylus tends to give lower surface noise, or at least it seems to me empirically.
Click to expand...

Amen What happens from the middle of the record to the inner grooves depends a lot on stylus shape. The overall "character" is more a function of the cantilever and suspension. One of the reviewers (Sam Telig maybe?) preferred the nude conical version of a Shure V15 he reviewed. Here at the Semeraro house... I have both nude and bonded versions of Stanton's 681A stylus. Same cantilver/suspension, same profile (.7) and the difference between them is.............. nothing. Within the limitations of what that stylus does and how it sounds, the two versions are interchangeable and identical.

Before the pitchforks come out, please allow me to state the obvious. Finer profile styli typically have cleaner top end, retrieve more spatial information and do a better job with sibilance. All other things being equal, a more sophisticated tip (if aligned correctly) will generally sound better than a more basic tip, etc. etc. But as Flavio says, we are really hearing the cantilever and suspension more than we are hearing the tip unless the tip is obviously mistracking or committing some other sins of commission or omission.
 
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Pio1980 said:
Yes, but other than the same tracing resolution as it's spherical twin, does it address "pinch effect" as well as a true biradial elliptical tip?
Click to expand...
Yeah it fits the groove better with the front and back bits of diamond "out of the way" reducing pinch effect.
 
All this is great information, for me and my 62 year old ears I'm staying with micro line or like my new Ortofon 2m bronze fine line gives me the best sound for my ears.
 
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