Thorens TD160 E no low frequencies - Help needed

[Fishead]

In other news, I've cleaned the lead wires pins, it seems to help a bit with left channel distortion, but I might have imagine that

Never hurts to make sure your connections are clean and free of oxidation. Have you gotten your soldering kit yet and re-soldered the terminal block connections? Once those are properly done, I believe that will be the biggest difference in what you are hearing......

I think Tom is right that the cantilever being skewed a bit is not likely the cause of distortion, but whatever the case might be, it can't be a good thing and is also not that hard, being aluminum, to correct. I say not that hard, but it does require a gentle touch and patience to put it back in a straight condition. Using two round toothpicks, one on either side of where the bend appears, you can, with slight pressure, get the cantilever to bend back towards where it should be. Proceed at your own risk, amigo, and be very, very gentle and work slowly. You achieve small, incremental gains as you go and constantly re-evaluate the condition each time you apply the pressure. Find a way to secure the cartridge so it doesn't move where you can work on it, ideally on a desk with good lighting with the bottom of the cartridge facing upward naturally.

 

[ChronoSee]

Never hurts to make sure your connections are clean and free of oxidation. Have you gotten your soldering kit yet and re-soldered the terminal block connections? Once those are properly done, I believe that will be the biggest difference in what you are hearing......

No, I should get soldering kit next week. For now I have cleaned tonearm leads.

 

[Fishead]

Very good.....you're on the right track amigo!

 

[gadget73]

very low mass arms and high compliance cartridges were the thing in the late 70s and early 80s, now we're back towards medium and low compliance carts. My TD-160's stock arm is 16.5 grams effective mass, the arm on yours is I think 7.5? Those arms came out maybe 5 years after mine was made.

nothing says you can't increase the mass of the arm by adding weight to the headshell end. The ugly way is to stick a coin to the top and re-balance it but you can add weight underneath so it doesn't look ugly. Plates that sit between the cartridge and the headshell can be had for not much money if you have to do that.

 

[ChronoSee]

very low mass arms and high compliance cartridges were the thing in the late 70s and early 80s, now we're back towards medium and low compliance carts. My TD-160's stock arm is 16.5 grams effective mass, the arm on yours is I think 7.5? Those arms came out maybe 5 years after mine was made.

nothing says you can't increase the mass of the arm by adding weight to the headshell end. The ugly way is to stick a coin to the top and re-balance it but you can add weight underneath so it doesn't look ugly. Plates that sit between the cartridge and the headshell can be had for not much money if you have to do that.

Appreciate the answer. What will happen if the compliance is too low? Issues with tracking?

 

[gadget73]

the compliance and mass thing are about mechanical resonance. The idea is to have it below the frequency of music, but above the frequency of a warp. Usually its somewhere about 8hz. If its too high or low, it can start dancing if it hits a warp or a low bass note, and in extreme cases it can make the stylus jump right out of the groove.

https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php

will tell you if its a happy combo or not.

 

[ChronoSee]

I started with the soldering job. Cleaned the terminal so far. Maybe it isn't perfect but that's what I can do

 

[Fishead]

I started with the soldering job. Cleaned the terminal so far. Maybe it isn't perfect but that's what I can do

That last picture looks very nice, good job of cleaning and you are off to a good start. Now, you will need to decide how you will put things back together.....it's all OK though, because if you don't think you have it right the first time, you can go back and make changes since you now apparently have your new soldering tools, correct?

If I were you, and that's just me, I would put things back together the way some of us have suggested Thorens originally configured the wiring. This is, again, with the ground from the tonearm and the subchassis going to the right channel negative. I wonder if there is a service manual available for your specific unit that shows how Thorens originally wired it before the previous owner messed with it? That would be very helpful. Perhaps @lini may know something about that and where to access one if available. I believe you can get the service manual for the regular TD160 from Vinylengine, but that may not be the correct one for your particular model. I have looked and there is not one for a TD160 "E" so no help there.

 

[ChronoSee]

I've done the job according to the pictures and instructions (at least I think I did). If someone can take a look ...

 

[Fishead]

Should work.....I'm thinking I see two ground wires going up into the tonearm and that is different from what I see on my 160. Not sure what to make of it, but give it a try and see how it sounds. If you have no hum then you would appear to be good to go.....

BE SURE TO START OFF WITH YOUR VOLUME TURNED ALL THE WAY DOWN AN THEN INCREASE IT SLOWLY SO YOU DON'T DO ANY HARM TO YOUR SPEAKERS......

 

[gadget73]

This is going to sound dumb but make sure the cable with the white inner wire actually goes where you think it does. I made that assumption on my ROK, turns out the cable with the white core went to the red plug, and the one with the red core went to the white plug. factory-assembled ends that can't be swapped, so it must have just been made stupidly.

 

[tnsilver]

I've done the job according to the pictures and instructions (at least I think I did). If someone can take a look ...

The wiring is correct - but I am missing the grounding lead from the sub-chassis to the main chassis. Also, I've never seen a TP-16 variant with two ground leads coming out the pillar. The armtube is internally grounded to the bulk metal mass from a point just above the pillar, and the tonearm grounding is summed up with one single lead. The two leads don't look right. Perhaps Thorens had decided to ground the sub-chassis via the tonearm base - or a previous owner screwed around with the grounding... I'd test with a DMM continuity to figure this out.

 

[ChronoSee]

This is going to sound dumb but make sure the cable with the white inner wire actually goes where you think it does. I made that assumption on my ROK, turns out the cable with the white core went to the red plug, and the one with the red core went to the white plug. factory-assembled ends that can't be swapped, so it must have just been made stupidly.

I checked the wires with multimeter and they are correct. Thanks!

Should work.....I'm thinking I see two ground wires going up into the tonearm and that is different from what I see on my 160. Not sure what to make of it, but give it a try and see how it sounds. If you have no hum then you would appear to be good to go.....

BE SURE TO START OFF WITH YOUR VOLUME TURNED ALL THE WAY DOWN AN THEN INCREASE IT SLOWLY SO YOU DON'T DO ANY HARM TO YOUR SPEAKERS......

Ok, the "boom boom" sound is gone, but there is a hum now when the speakers and TT is on, but no music is played. I don't really hear it while playing music (except for low volume passages on records. Moreover I can hear static if I touch the metal plater.

CEC and Thorens comparison
Now the whole update. I've been able to A/B test The Thorens with Grado Green Prestige 1 and CEC BD-2000 with AT-VM95E. Mainly using Bill Withers - Just As I Am (I know this record well so it was a good choice for me.)
I would say, I prefer the CEC sound, it's smoother, a bit warmer and richer, maybe more spacious (not sure about that one). The vocals are more forward sounding and clearer.
Thorens sounds harsh by comparison, I can hear it being more precise but at the same time vocals are bit distorted and mudded, definitely not as smooth sounding.
The mid-low end on Thorens is definitely louder and tighter, wich is nice but makes for harsher sounding playback. It makes electronic music more dynamic but it's not really suited for soul and jazz for me.

My stupidity
The distortion on left channel which I mentioned in previous posts was not an issue of TT. Maybe some distortion, as it sounds better now after doing the wires.
CEC has the same distortion on left channel, I might have damaged the record I was testing this on. The distortion of Thorens are clearly heard and harsh, CEC on the other hand I can still hear them, but they are much softer sounding.

Overall thoughts
Next I'll try to get rid of the hum, if someone has any idea how to do so.
I want to try different carts I own to see how they compare on TD160 to get a better idea what are the characteristics of this TT.
I would love to get a bit more laid back sound, smoother sound. At the same time I'm disappointed by the lack of clarity in sound. I wonder if the cart is maybe worn?
It's a Grado Green 1, and I have no idea how long was it used before.


EDIT:
I switched the cart for AT 3600L (changing a cart on this tonearm is a nightmare).
Vocals are now clear (not distorted). Overall it sounds better? Maybe not better, but it sounds correct. Sounds are just clear. VERY FLAT but at least I can enjoy it.
Grado was distorting vocals, producing very harsh high frequencies and very strong *low frequencies (*that might be mine speakers, phonostage, cart combo).

The hum is still there, so there is still a grounding issue. At least I know my Grado cart is either broken or just worn.

Update on Grado
It looks like the contacts on a needle and cart are corroded. Is there a chance I can clean it? Or cleaning near coils won't be possible?

 

[ChronoSee]

The wiring is correct - but I am missing the grounding lead from the sub-chassis to the main chassis. I've never seen a TP-16 variant with two ground leads. The armtube is internally grounded to the bulk metal mass, and the tonearm grounding is summed in one single lead. It doesn't look right. Previous owner screwing around with grounding?

I have no idea what previous owner did to the wires .
I'll try to get a stock photo of a TD160 E insides.

The sub-chassis and main chassis is connected by the wire.

 

[tnsilver]

The sub-chassis and main chassis is connected by the wire.

Good! That's one mystery solved. Now, to figure out why the tonearm seems to have two grounding leads. I suspect one is not only redundant, but may also be responsible for the slight hum issue. With that said, some Grado's are known to hum with some turntables. Unfortunately, that's an inherent cart issue. Comparisons with different carts are practically worthless. Mount the same cart that's on the CEC, on the Thorens, and try again.

 

[ChronoSee]

Good! That's one mystery solved. Now, to figure out why the tonearm seems to have two grounding leads. I suspect one is not only redundant, but may also be responsible for the slight hum issue. With that said, some Grado's are known to hum with some turntables. Unfortunately, that's an inherent cart issue. Comparisons with different carts are practically worthless. Mount the same cart that's on the CEC, on the Thorens, and try again.

That's a difficult cart to mount on this headshell, I'll try with first AT 3600L that I have. I distortion will disappear I would know that the cart I have is worn. Am I correct?

 

[tnsilver]

First, I'd use a DMM to figure out where each of the two grounding leads from the tonearm goes to. I'd desolder one of them, and with one probe on the main chassis, I'd check continuity to the metal part of the wand collar. If both leads go to the same place - I'd cancel one of them.

 

[ChronoSee]

First, I'd use a DMM to figure out where each of the two grounding leads from the tonearm goes to. I'd desolder one of them, and with one probe on the main chassis, I'd check continuity to the metal part of the wand collar. If both leads go to the same place - I'd cancel one of them.

I'll leave that part for tomorrow or next weekend.
The setup is sounding better than it was in the morning (after changing the cart), I call that progress .

Thanks to everyone involved again! I'll keep you updated
If someone have a bottom mounted Audio Technica cart to recommend I'm all ears
I loved the VM95E, but the mounting might be problematic.

 

[Fishead]

I've never seen a TP-16 variant with two ground leads coming out the pillar.

Yep, that's what I was talking about earlier (post #90).....

As for the hum.....since it was not there before you did the resoldering and removed the ground wire (or I think you removed it, did you?). Can you please take a picture of the terminal block now after you rewired it? I'd like to see where everything is going because, as @tnsilver says above, the hum is likely a ground loop being formed somehow. You really only need one ground wire coming from the arm pillar, and you only need one going from your right channel negative wire to the subchassis. The one coming from the arm pillar and the one from the subchassis should both be soldered to the right channel negative post on the terminal and this should be all you need. Here's the picture again of how mine is wired (before I cleaned it up!!!) and it was fine......no hum. You can see three wires going into the tonearm pillar, one is just a ground, the other two are actually a core lead with a shield around it. The shield acts as the negative lead. You can see this where each wire attaches to the terminal. Then, you can also see how the ground wire and the chassis ground are soldered to that right channel negative post on the terminal. If this is not how you have it, I would do it this way and see if it doesn't solve your hum issue.

Yes, it is very likely that some of the sound problems you have been describing are cartridge related, especially after you mounted the AT3600 and the distortion disappeared. However.....and this is the real challenge......cartridges must be mounted very carefully, as you probably already know and special attention must be paid to azimuth, zenith and SRA along with the VTF or you will not be hearing the full potential of your cartridge. Many carts will sound flat and uninspiring if the setup is not correct. Let's deal with that after we get rid of the hum.

Again, please post a picture of your terminal block so we can see the wiring as it is now.

 

[ChronoSee]

Yep, that's what I was talking about earlier (post #90).....

As for the hum.....since it was not there before you did the resoldering and removed the ground wire (or I think you removed it, did you?). Can you please take a picture of the terminal block now after you rewired it? I'd like to see where everything is going because, as @tnsilver says above, the hum is likely a ground loop being formed somehow. You really only need one ground wire coming from the arm pillar, and you only need one going from your right channel negative wire to the subchassis. The one coming from the arm pillar and the one from the subchassis should both be soldered to the right channel negative post on the terminal and this should be all you need. Here's the picture again of how mine is wired (before I cleaned it up!!!) and it was fine......no hum. You can see three wires going into the tonearm pillar, one is just a ground, the other two are actually a core lead with a shield around it. The shield acts as the negative lead. You can see this where each wire attaches to the terminal. Then, you can also see how the ground wire and the chassis ground are soldered to that right channel negative post on the terminal. If this is not how you have it, I would do it this way and see if it doesn't solve your hum issue.

Yes, it is very likely that some of the sound problems you have been describing are cartridge related, especially after you mounted the AT3600 and the distortion disappeared. However.....and this is the real challenge......cartridges must be mounted very carefully, as you probably already know and special attention must be paid to azimuth, zenith and SRA along with the VTF or you will not be hearing the full potential of your cartridge. Many carts will sound flat and uninspiring if the setup is not correct. Let's deal with that after we get rid of the hum.

Again, please post a picture of your terminal block so we can see the wiring as it is now.

That's the current picture of the terminal block. As you suggested I removed the grounding cable that goes to the Phono Stage ground. So there is no outside grounding now.
Right jumper is connected via screw to main sub-chassis, sub-chassis is connected to the main chassis by separate wire (not in the picture). Maybe the right jumper is not connecting properly to the chassis? I can try to ground it by soldering separate cable.
Right jumper is connected to green wire, and all of that is connected to grounding wires of the arm (the transparent wires).
As stated before, I don't know why there are two of these wires. I can check with multimeter what's that about tomorrow, but not sure what am I looking for.

As for mounting the cart, I used Thorens chart to align it properly, and digital-scale to adjust tracking force, and plain part of the Vinyl to make sure anti-skate is correctly set.
I did the same with Grado before.
AT3600 is sounding flat compared to Grado and VM95E, channel separation is weak and it's lacking richness to the sound. But it sounds much better overall than Grado. I can clearly hear low, mid and high frequencies it sounds just clear and just okey.