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Tonearm for Denon DL-103

tnsilver said:
The DL-103 dates back to 1962. It was designed for contemporary broadcasting industry requirements and as such, it is an effective mass hog. Matching tonearms start at around 16g eff. mass. The 103 begins to shine at about 19g and just never stops *wanting* more. A 15g eff. mass tonearm can make it sound OK'ish but really just hints at how it should be. It simply lacks the stamina (inertia) to tame the DL-103 because it is a very stiff (low compliance) cart. In my experience, not even the classic Thorens TP-16 Mk-I (16.5g eff. mass) has enough of it to make the 103 perform. Slap it on the decade older BTD-12S though, and it's a world of a difference.

Most broadcast tonearms of the 60's and the following consumer grade tonearms of the same class, are a natural match for a Denon DL-103. Those are all high eff. mass tonearms such as the Ortofons designed to handle the proprietary SPU's, the long broadcasting EMT's plus the older Japanese rivals. Now days most of those vintage tonearms are rare and expensive, so people tend to compromise for what's available and affordable. Whatever it is, the DL-103 reputation, the global affection it attracts with the die hard fan club, was not acquired by mounting it on a 15 gram eff. mass tonearm.

The cheapest and most common tonearm that I found to be a surprisingly good match for the DL-103 is the Lenco L-75 / Bogen B-75 / Goldring GL-75 that is estimated at 23 - 24 grams of EM (no one really knows). Unfortunately it's not much good for anything else. It is a rather low end design of a knife edge bearing tonearm with a poorly implemented tension wire counter weight stub coupling mechanism that's very difficult to fix. The rotten v-block mounts issue isn't a show stopper but it's a royal pain to rewire and I find it rather ungraceful. The one thing it does good when intact is play a DL-103 cart.

Another viable but a lesser common option is the Thorens BTD-12S tonearm. Some say it's an EMT inspired design by Thorens and there are two variants of this tonearm. One was supplied with the TD-135 turntable as an on-deck no-armboard version, with the lateral bearings embedded in the turntable chassis, separate from the tonearm. These are common and pop up on eBay every now and then - though not cheap. The other flavor was a stand alone full fledged tonearm with an armboard, lift bank, bearings housing and cable. I'm not sure about it's effective mass but I estimate it at above 19g. It's VTF exertion mechanism goes all the way up to 8 grams and there's no built in anti-skate mechanism (if that's much of an indication). Whether EMT inspired or not, it's one superb tonearm, designed for the lower compliant carts of the era. The successor to the BTD-12S was the TP-14 with the anti-skate weight on string and TP-50 headshell, which can play well with the DL-103 as well.

I'm currently using a BTD-12S on a TD-135 with a bog plain DL-103 cart - and it's near perfect. I'm also using a DL-103R on a TD-124 with an early SME 3012 Series 2 tonearm (stainless steel armtube, larger two parts counter weight). I did not have to modify it but I had to acquire the (missing) second part of the smaller rider weight as an additional lump of mass for my use with the DL-103R. It is a perfect match to my ears.

I've added the tonearms I mentioned already to a list of DL-103 compatible matches that I've compiled off the top of my head. It is nothing but a very partial
and incomplete collection:
  • SME 3012 Series 1 or early Series 2 (12")
  • Thorens BTD-12S / TP-14
  • Acos Lustre GST 1
  • Ortofon RS-212
  • Ortofon RMG-212 / RMG-309 (12")
  • Ortofon SMG-212 (9") / SKG-212 (12")
  • EMT 997 (banana)
  • EMT 929
  • Lenco/Bogen /Goldring L/B/GL-75 tonearm
Click to expand...

I'm working on a Rek-O-Kut B12GH build on which I'm planning to install an ESL/Ortofon S-1000 arm with a DL-103. :)
 
The ESL arms are also a good choice as well for a low(er) compliance cartridge, IME/IMO.
There's one upstairs (I with a Shure M3 (IIRC) mounted on it -- but neither actually, technically, are mine. They were (maybe still are) on tap to be tried with a Rek-O-Kut, too, come to think of it. :)

096.jpg

source www.alliedcatalogs.com (1961)
 
I'm using an audio quest pt8 arm with added lead tape as weight on my rd11 turntable with an aluminum body and it sounds excellent. I'm also using a sumiko mmt arm on my modded xa with extra heavy counterweight and same body and the same thing soundwise. I added extra weight on the mmt by using an ortofon head shell. Both my carts come in at 16 grams and have the modded cantilever and diamonds as well. They out perform all my other carts easily. And for the non believers a dual 1019 handles a 103 with a spacer with no issues either, stock cart, but it takes it.
 
Thank you all for your suggestions and opinions. They all seem to to be well grounded in knowledge in experience.
Not to disregard anything that's been said, I went back to Vinyl Engine, and there was one review of the AT 1005 arm that claimed it was a good match for the DL-103.
I was also taking some time to look at Fidelity research arms; the FR-24 and FR-54 are not obscenely expensive for used arms. Only going by their age I'm guessing they might have more EM, but I haven't found a reference yet. And they also seem to well liked at VE.
I can look further into the list tnsilver provided, but I'll guess without really looking that an SME 3012 is gonna be might bit pricey.
But, hey, either I find a combination that will work, or I give up on this fantasy and find another way to blow my cash.
Cuz we all know, there are many options for us to do so.
 
Or you can look into other MC cartridges that perform better than the DL-103 over a wider variety of arms. Currently I am using an Ortofon Quintet Bronze and an AT AT33PTG/ii with my Audiomods arm (with a variable weight counterweight) and they both work great without adding a bunch of weight to the arm.

My DL-103 is potted in a Paradox Pulse Guard alloy body, which increases its weight to 15.3g and requires a heavy counterweight (easy to do on the Audiomods), but that setup works great. When I used the DL-103 on my Technics SL-1200 mk2, over 25g needed to be added to the CW end of the arm (which was also easy to do with a modified aux weight - lots of lead tape added).

Taking a stock DL-103 and using it with any arm is not straightforward, as evidenced by the posts in this thread. While the cartridge cost is fairly low, getting it to sound good is not always plug and play (I will refer back to my initial statements in this post)
 
mprince said:
Taking a stock DL-103 and using it with any arm is not straightforward, as evidenced by the posts in this thread. While the cartridge cost is fairly low, getting it to sound good is not always plug and play (I will refer back to my initial statements in this post)
Click to expand...
Fine. You've done it. My hopes. My dreams. Shattered. Lying broken like so much that we hold dear only to be told it was but folly.
Was it so much to believe that one could economically build a vinyl playback system based on a Denon DL-103 Moving Coil Cartridge. Perhaps one of the longest running products in all of stereodom (Yes, I just made that up. Deal with it.), with a legacy of providing what many have described as "music beyond hi-fi", both for discerning consumers as well as setting a standard for broadcasters. At least in Japan.
The thoughts of the joy of watching that stiff little cantilever manhandle a high mass tonearm while making sweet, sweet music, unparalleled by anything available in its price range gone. Gone. Like a tattered balloon, popped and hanging in shreds forlornly on it's string. Gone. Like the three scoops of ice cream that have fallen from your ice cream cone melting on the hot pavement- and it was your favorite, a combination of chocolate, fudge swirl and peppermint. Yes it's like that.
But I know you took no joy (mostly) in crushing like a rose in your hands, being careful to avoid the thorns, the idea that one could perform such a feat, Because like that rose, there are many thorns, waiting to prick (don't go there!) the unwary. Once down this road of equipment accumulation how does one justify the unique nature of the items needed . After all once you found a proper tonearm at a "God knows what cost" suitable for a DL-103, will it be acceptable for any other cartridge. Is one prepared to dedicate himself to just one cartridge, forsaking all others. Sounds like another "institution" doesn't it? Are we really prepared to go there?!
So, no, (or yes, depends on your perspective linguistically), thanks to you, I will not find myself chasing this dream. There is not to be a Denon DL-103 in my near future. Now, I'm not saying never (just ask Sean Connery about that) but unless an appropriate tonearm first falls into my hands, and I mean at a "how do I say no to that!" price, I will take the advice of one wiser than me (somewhere up there in an earlier post) and one day try a more usable MC cartridge.
Got any suggestions?
 
ctjetta said:
Fine. You've done it. My hopes. My dreams. Shattered.
....
Got any suggestions?
Click to expand...
I gave you two suggestions in my post, Audio Technica also has the AT-F3 and AT33EV, Denon has the DL-110 and the DL-301 (majick47 had some examples as well). Or you can get your feet wet with a pre-owned MC cartridge, which should save some money over new.
 
ctjetta said:
OK, the Denon DL-103 is a rather low compliance cartridge. It apparently requires a rather higher effective mass tonearm. What tonearms would compatible with this cartridge? Are there older AT tonearms, Micro Seiki or others? I'm not interested in what could be usable if we add mass to the headshell, like say a Jelco or an SME.
I've seen a Micro Seiki MA 77 II, but can find little about it. Just as an example.

So what higher mass tonearms can you suggest?
Click to expand...

My Lenco L-75 has a Audio Technica AT 1009 tonearm, which is a superb match (period correct) for a Denon DL-103 that I´ve mounted on it.

 
mprince said:
Or you can look into other MC cartridges that perform better than the DL-103 over a wider variety of arms. Currently I am using an Ortofon Quintet Bronze and an AT AT33PTG/ii with my Audiomods arm (with a variable weight counterweight) and they both work great without adding a bunch of weight to the arm.

My DL-103 is potted in a Paradox Pulse Guard alloy body, which increases its weight to 15.3g and requires a heavy counterweight (easy to do on the Audiomods), but that setup works great. When I used the DL-103 on my Technics SL-1200 mk2, over 25g needed to be added to the CW end of the arm (which was also easy to do with a modified aux weight - lots of lead tape added).

Taking a stock DL-103 and using it with any arm is not straightforward, as evidenced by the posts in this thread. While the cartridge cost is fairly low, getting it to sound good is not always plug and play (I will refer back to my initial statements in this post)
Click to expand...

My experience also. A 103 needs an aftermarket body to get the best from it. Likewise a lighter cantilever and line contact tip. It's also sensitive to just which SUT is used. I've found a vintage Jensen SUT seems best with it.... So yes, you have to get everything just right to get it to really sing. I believe the effort is worth it though whether it is for you also is up to you :)

I don't like potting them though as it seems to lose its sense of air. A little lead shot damping at the front of the cart seems to work well :)
 
With a stock 1200mk2, 8.5 gram headshell, stock 103r. hi fi news test record resonance 10 Hz. Sounds pretty good imo. Tracking 2.6
 
ctjetta said:
Fine. You've done it. My hopes. My dreams. Shattered. Lying broken like so much that we hold dear only to be told it was but folly.
Was it so much to believe that one could economically build a vinyl playback system based on a Denon DL-103 Moving Coil Cartridge. Perhaps one of the longest running products in all of stereodom (Yes, I just made that up. Deal with it.), with a legacy of providing what many have described as "music beyond hi-fi", both for discerning consumers as well as setting a standard for broadcasters. At least in Japan.
The thoughts of the joy of watching that stiff little cantilever manhandle a high mass tonearm while making sweet, sweet music, unparalleled by anything available in its price range gone. Gone. Like a tattered balloon, popped and hanging in shreds forlornly on it's string. Gone. Like the three scoops of ice cream that have fallen from your ice cream cone melting on the hot pavement- and it was your favorite, a combination of chocolate, fudge swirl and peppermint. Yes it's like that.
But I know you took no joy (mostly) in crushing like a rose in your hands, being careful to avoid the thorns, the idea that one could perform such a feat, Because like that rose, there are many thorns, waiting to prick (don't go there!) the unwary. Once down this road of equipment accumulation how does one justify the unique nature of the items needed . After all once you found a proper tonearm at a "God knows what cost" suitable for a DL-103, will it be acceptable for any other cartridge. Is one prepared to dedicate himself to just one cartridge, forsaking all others. Sounds like another "institution" doesn't it? Are we really prepared to go there?!
So, no, (or yes, depends on your perspective linguistically), thanks to you, I will not find myself chasing this dream. There is not to be a Denon DL-103 in my near future. Now, I'm not saying never (just ask Sean Connery about that) but unless an appropriate tonearm first falls into my hands, and I mean at a "how do I say no to that!" price, I will take the advice of one wiser than me (somewhere up there in an earlier post) and one day try a more usable MC cartridge.
Got any suggestions?
Click to expand...

The Denon DL-103 was domestically released commercially in 1970, much progress have been made since then.

There are numerous cartridge that sounds just as good if not better than the original witness the more than a dozen variations of the DL-103 just by Denon alone.

There are numerous similar sounding cartridge by other companies that do not require such low compliance.

Do a little research and you will not be so nostalgic. :)
 
jgordon said:
I had good luck with a Jelco 750-L. Tonally superb. Moved away from the combo for different reasons.
Click to expand...

I second the Jelco 750-L recommendation. I used my Zu 103 with that arm for a long time, it was a great sounding combo. I eventually upgraded to a Schick 12” - noticeably better sounding than the Jelco but at a steeper price too. Love the midrange tone of the 103, it’s just so satisfying to me.
 
guiller said:
My Lenco L-75 has a Audio Technica AT 1009 tonearm, which is a superb match (period correct) for a Denon DL-103 that I´ve mounted on it.

Click to expand...

Can you tell me how the counterweight "fine adjustment" works on this? My AT1005ii is actually bastardized with some AT1009 parts I bought from a Japanese eBay seller and it came with the counterweight stub and the little black collar stumped me as to it's function.

Nice table btw. :)
 
What I've read about the arm mass for the Denon DL-103, the magic number is 24 grams for arm mass. The Jelco SA-750D (20 grams) and the new line of Jelco tonearms will mate very good to the DL-103.
 
The thing about the DL-103 is this.
For a while, a company in Florida, Comet Supply, was selling them for $118.
I do not think one will find a better sounding* cartridge for 118 USD than a properly implemented DL-103 (even, yes, a bone stock one).
One should also not be afraid to track heavy, as befits its very low compliance, for best results.

____________
* in the sense of music sounding like actual music being played by actual flesh and blood people.
 
mhardy6647 said:
The thing about the DL-103 is this.
For a while, a company in Florida, Comet Supply, was selling them for $118.
I do not think one will find a better sounding* cartridge for 118 USD than a properly implemented DL-103 (even, yes, a bone stock one).
One should also not be afraid to track heavy, as befits its very low compliance, for best results.

____________
* in the sense of music sounding like actual music being played by actual flesh and blood people.
Click to expand...

Those were the days, bought my Denon DL-301 MKII for $179, regular price was $329 at the time. Don't think you'll find prices as cheap as Comet Supply on Denon cartridges, was good as it lasted! ;)
 
guiller said:
My Lenco L-75 has a Audio Technica AT 1009 tonearm, which is a superb match (period correct) for a Denon DL-103 that I´ve mounted on it.

Click to expand...
I used my DL-103 on an AT-1009 and it also worked really well. I had a fairly heavy shell, but with the chunky counterweight on the 1009 it was no problem at all. Both the ATP-12T and AT-1009 were successes with the DL-103.
 
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