Topping D50

[airbus]

If I understand it, the 9038q2m and Pro are essentially identical except the Pro has 8 channels instead of 2 and uses better samples. I know 11 db of S/n ratio might sound like a lot as does the prospect of lower distortion, but my own diy experience
with speakers often led to my discovery that implementation/design was way more important than parts quality (at a certain level at least). For instance, Thiels used VIFA drivers, but they sounded a heck of a lot better than anything I could
build myself with the same drivers. I also remember Ken Kantor, then of NHT, argue that design generally trumped parts quality: there was a bigger difference between first-rate implementation and merely competent design than there is between say mylar and polypropylene caps in a crossover or a vifa 6.5 and a dynaudio or Scanspeak. fwiw, I doubt that the Topping is an example of "WOW" design, but it's probably at least competent.
I don't know for sure that I'd be able to hear the difference between a Pro and 9038q2m. Some people compare the relationship to the i3 and i7 processors and I suspect someone who's word processing and
surfing the internet wouldn't really know the difference. I also imagine the rest of my system is and my listening taste is more or less like audio hobbyist word processing. Bottom line, you may be noticing things that I can't appreciate.

I'm glad to hear that hifimediy is alive and well. As I said, I found them very responsive in the years prior to this. It may just be a coincidence, but their level of activity did appear to drop off at roughly the same time the audio science review came out. It's kind of like fake news; I'm not sure that ignoring it is the best way to respond. I have no way of knowing if it affected their business, but I do think it gave a lot of people who would be seriously considering the 9038 pro yet another reason to hesitate. I may have been one of them.

 

[wushuliu]

If I understand it, the 9038q2m and Pro are essentially identical except the Pro has 8 channels instead of 2 and uses better samples. I know 11 db of S/n ratio might sound like a lot as does the prospect of lower distortion, but my own diy experience
with speakers often led to my discovery that implementation/design was way more important than parts quality (at a certain level at least).

The two chips being identical aside from number of channels is mentioned offhand across forums but as far as I know unsubstantiated by ESS and the comparative specs don't seem to make a case for it. Unlike most DAC companies, ESS has had a habit of including different features in their chips that are not readily transparent and they are strict about their datasheets. I'm not aware of any comparison between datasheets confirming the chips are basically the same. I could be wrong.

For instance, Thiels used VIFA drivers, but they sounded a heck of a lot better than anything I could
build myself with the same drivers. I also remember Ken Kantor, then of NHT, argue that design generally trumped parts quality: there was a bigger difference between first-rate implementation and merely competent design than there is between say mylar and polypropylene caps in a crossover or a vifa 6.5 and a dynaudio or Scanspeak. fwiw, I doubt that the Topping is an example of "WOW" design, but it's probably at least competent.
I don't know for sure that I'd be able to hear the difference between a Pro and 9038q2m. Some people compare the relationship to the i3 and i7 processors and I suspect someone who's word processing and
surfing the internet wouldn't really know the difference. I also imagine the rest of my system is and my listening taste is more or less like audio hobbyist word processing. Bottom line, you may be noticing things that I can't appreciate.

That's the thing, we can guess we wouldn't notice the difference but really there's only one way to know. I notice more with these dacs only because I enjoy tinkering with them and comparing them. I have owned/auditioned easily a dozen or more budget dacs over the past few years so I am familiar with the sound signature of each brand (Burr Brown vs ESS vs AKM), the output stages, and the chips they use. Unfortunately it also means I am a rarity in terms of having listened to all those and a 9038Pro as well. Based on my experience either hifime really went off script with their approach or the 9038Pro really is better or maybe a combination of both. IMO All the recent ESS budget chips sound more alike than not, regardless of implementation. The 9038Pro does not. I've been hoping to come across additional opinions to bear that out, but like I said, I'm a rarity in having listened to a wide range (in budget sector). That said, I could happily live with the D50.

I consider myself an amateur speaker designer so I understand Kantor's point and agree with it.

I'm glad to hear that hifimediy is alive and well. As I said, I found them very responsive in the years prior to this. It may just be a coincidence, but their level of activity did appear to drop off at roughly the same time the audio science review came out. It's kind of like fake news; I'm not sure that ignoring it is the best way to respond. I have no way of knowing if it affected their business, but I do think it gave a lot of people who would be seriously considering the 9038 pro yet another reason to hesitate. I may have been one of them.

Unfortunate if that's the case. I consider that site problematic, to say the least. One of the unspoken facets of this hobby is that in the real world, there is barely any peer-reviewed, serious research on most of the stuff audiophiles and their detractors argue about. We are .0000001% of the consumers in audio. So one person doing measurements in a vacuum where there are almost no other peers to compare work or any established methodology to base them on, has an outsized influence due to tribal dynamics of the internet. It's unfortunate.

 

[wushuliu]

Since I'm in a chatty mood I also strongly recommend using a usb/spdif coaxial converter with any of these DACs if they have coaxial input. Over the years the converters consistently provide better sound quality than the onboard usb from my experience. Sometimes by a little, sometimes by a lot.

And get the best power supply you can for the dac. Always. I wouldn't buy a dac that could not use an external power supply.

 

[gvl]

Since I'm in a chatty mood I also strongly recommend using a usb/spdif coaxial converter with any of these DACs if they have coaxial input. Over the years the converters consistently provide better sound quality than the onboard usb from my experience. Sometimes by a little, sometimes by a lot.

I don't think this holds true anymore. Most recent DACs and USB/SPDIF converters are based on the venerable XMOS chipset, so technically the USB communication part is the same, but with the external converter you add the SPDIF path which can be a source of additional issues vs. having the USB converter right next to the DAC chip. In addition, the D50 is based on the ESS DAC chip which runs off its own clock with jitter correction and ASRC onboard so having external USB/SPDIF converter is moot point. One potential issue is that these cheap DACs do not have galvanic isolation on the USB input which can lead to ground loops and digital noise leaking from computer USB ports, so if you get those than an external USB/SPDIF converter with isolated Coax or even Toslink can help, otherwise save your money for something else.

 

[wushuliu]

I don't think this holds true anymore. Most recent DACs and USB/SPDIF converters are based on the venerable XMOS chipset, so technically the USB communication part is the same, but with the external converter you add the SPDIF path which can be a source of additional issues vs. having the USB converter right next to the DAC chip. In addition, the D50 is based on the ESS DAC chip which runs off its own clock with jitter correction and ASRC onboard so having external USB/SPDIF converter is moot point. One potential issue is that these cheap DACs do not have galvanic isolation on the USB input which can lead to ground loops and digital noise leaking from computer USB ports, so if you get those than an external USB/SPDIF converter with isolated Coax or even Toslink can help, otherwise save your money for something else.

I tried to convince myself of that for a good while, and had just usb-only DACs for a spell, but every time I used an external spdif there was a gain. I've been messing around with dacs for years. I know about XMOS, and use XMOS-based components exclusively, preferably the 208, with the exception of the hifime which uses Savitech. I use a 216-based usb to I2S for diy projects like the Soekris dac. As for the ESS jitter correction and ASRC onboard making an external converter unnecessary, that hasn't borne out with experience and is not an absolute. There's plenty of discussion about that elsewhere. With galvanic isolation, most dacs regardless of budget do not have galvanic isolation for usb input so in effect you're saying that for most dacs loops and noise leakage can be an issue. It's not like past a certain point all dacs come with more rigorous usb design. Some do, most don't. There's a reason that there is such a huge market for usb 'purifiers'.

 

[gvl]

I tried to convince myself of that for a good while, and had just usb-only DACs for a spell, but every time I used an external spdif there was a gain.

Fwiw, ASR scrutinized the D50's performance, no significant differences have been found between its USB and SPDIF inputs on the test bench.



Jitter over USB is near perfect.


So is linearity:


I'm at a loss what kind of improvements can an external USB to SPDIF converter bring with the D50, except maybe in a pathological case with a very noisy PC.

 

[wushuliu]

Fwiw, ASR scrutinized D50 performance, no significant differences have been found between USB and SPDIF inputs on the test bench.

View attachment 1374972

Jitter over USB is near perfect.
View attachment 1374974

So is linearity:
View attachment 1374977

I'm at a loss what kind of improvements can an external USB to SPDIF converter bring with the D50.

I've already expressed my views about that site. If that's the criteria you use to make those kinds of assessments I have nothing further to say.

 

[awillia6]

If only.

 

[wushuliu]

If only.

Classy.

 

[awillia6]

I'm not the one making drive-bys. How is a newly-minted AKer or someone just getting into DACs to understand your ASR slam without having been given the basis for it? You need to think a bit more before you post.

 

[gvl]

I've already expressed my views about that site. If that's the criteria you use to make those kinds of assessments I have nothing further to say.

But most people who bought the D50 were directly or indirectly influenced by the ASR's assessment of the D50's performance, I haven't read a single complaint about their subjective experiences. It counts, don't you think?

 

[wushuliu]

@awillia6 - You literally just made a drive by. I've posted earlier in this thread and lengthily the past few days. This thread is about the D50, not ASR, which is why I refrained from talking more about it. If someone else wants to talk about them, then great.

@gvl - I LIKE the D50 and have said so. I think it's an excellent DAC, especially considering the features and the price.

 

[Alobar]

I'm not so interested in ASR either, but am interested in peoples perspective about what the D50 sounds like. I find I am needing a second DAC to use for streaming and have been thinking of the Modi 3 for that. However if I could get a better idea of how well the D50 performs it could end up kicking my Modi MB out of my main (critical listening) system and have it instead be used for streaming.. So far I still really like the Modi MB for its sound qualities. I know what ASR says about the Modi MB and that is fine for those who hang their opinion entirely on that but how do the two DAC's really compare sound wise playing music?

As for features, what else does the D50 give me over my current DAC? How differently does it handle Hi Res? Other advantages? And how does the D50 compare with some of Topping's other DAC's such as the D30?

 

[GChief]

but how do the two DAC's really compare sound wise playing music?

Truth, I use to chase all the numbers when I was younger until I realized they are just a good reference. At the end of the day a lot of the time they don’t mean diddly squat.

 

[gvl]

How differently does it handle Hi Res?

How? Modi MB is a 16-bit device, not fit for hi-res. No anti-Shiit is embedded, just a pure fact that's in the specs.

 

[fredgarvin]

I'm not so interested in ASR either, but am interested in peoples perspective about what the D50 sounds like. I find I am needing a second DAC to use for streaming and have been thinking of the Modi 3 for that. However if I could get a better idea of how well the D50 performs it could end up kicking my Modi MB out of my main (critical listening) system and have it instead be used for streaming.. So far I still really like the Modi MB for its sound qualities. I know what ASR says about the Modi MB and that is fine for those who hang their opinion entirely on that but how do the two DAC's really compare sound wise playing music?

As for features, what else does the D50 give me over my current DAC? How differently does it handle Hi Res? Other advantages? And how does the D50 compare with some of Topping's other DAC's such as the D30?

The Modi doesn't do DSD. I've read people saying the D50 sounds just like the D30, but they have entirely different chipsets, or did last I knew. The D30 uses a Cirrus logic and the D50 went to the ESS. I don't remember if the D30 has the filters as the 50 does.I would expect them to sound different.

 

[evsentry3]

I'm not so interested in ASR either, but am interested in peoples perspective about what the D50 sounds like.

It's not in the same league as the Schiit Yggy. But you wouldn't expect it to be, no matter what the storied Amirbits say.

I bought the D50 just to see what it sounded like and then to either turn over or put in the TV system. So far, after listening a little, it hasn't really moved. Uninspiring audio is just that.

You measure to see what's not right and listen to see what's right.

EV3

 

[wushuliu]

I'm not so interested in ASR either, but am interested in peoples perspective about what the D50 sounds like. I find I am needing a second DAC to use for streaming and have been thinking of the Modi 3 for that. However if I could get a better idea of how well the D50 performs it could end up kicking my Modi MB out of my main (critical listening) system and have it instead be used for streaming.. So far I still really like the Modi MB for its sound qualities. I know what ASR says about the Modi MB and that is fine for those who hang their opinion entirely on that but how do the two DAC's really compare sound wise playing music?

As for features, what else does the D50 give me over my current DAC? How differently does it handle Hi Res? Other advantages? And how does the D50 compare with some of Topping's other DAC's such as the D30?

As mentioned, they use different chipsets and will have different sonic presentations. Schiit uses AKM dacs and the D50 uses ESS, D30 uses AKM. Ultimately the best thing to do is hear them for yourself. If you have an Amazon account they are all available and their generous return policy allows you to return whichever one you don't like (well, any decent store will allow you to return them but Amazon is the most convenient). There's no substitute for listening for yourself.

 

[DaaDaa]

As mentioned, they use different chipsets and will have different sonic presentations. Schiit uses AKM dacs and the D50 uses ESS, D30 uses AKM. Ultimately the best thing to do is hear them for yourself. If you have an Amazon account they are all available and their generous return policy allows you to return whichever one you don't like (well, any decent store will allow you to return them but Amazon is the most convenient). There's no substitute for listening for yourself.

I dont think that D30 uses AKM. i dont have it here though i have it on order but by my meory it is a Cirus logic chip and thats the reason i decided to give it a try in the first place.

 

[wushuliu]

I dont think that D30 uses AKM. i dont have it here though i have it on order but by my meory it is a Cirus logic chip and thats the reason i decided to give it a try in the first place.

Sorry, you're right it uses the CS4398, which I also like.