The very name (that rhymes with ****) sends the type A recoiling away (I share that too).
Topping D50
- Thread starter E.Auer
- Start date
Actually, and very ironically, some have very similarly roiled the waters in video in the past. Until laughed off those forums. Guess who?
Amirbits is who!! Who'd a thunk??
EV3
airbus
Active Member
Back to the D50. After more listening, I remain quite happy. My initial impression that it's rather lush was probably in contrast to some others who find the Topping to be on the cold side. I do understand the "cold" "harsh" criticisms, but my take is that
it may be a function of the underlying source. With something like a well recorded string quartet, there's a lot of bloom with the Topping d50 in my system. Bad recordings do tend to sound flat or cold. Bad recordings also tend to sound edgy at high volume with the highs. My take is that good equipment reveals that sort of stuff and lets me hear the limits of the recording itself. I know a lot of people like tube preamps, at least partly because they can make make things sound warmer, in some cases even when the source isn't all that warm. At the harmonic level, I'm really impressed with the d-50.
I am noticing that with small group jazz recordings that when I listen to the bass player, I'm tending to notice the notes first and sort of picking up on the beat second. The d50 is great with arco bass, especially given that I'm listening on 6.5 inch woofers in a small room. It's plucked bass and that kick you can get from the drums that's maybe a little less exciting . There's a longstanding debate about even vs. odd crossovers which amounts to odd is more phase coherent (hence you often reverse polarity on the tweeter in a two way system with a 12 db crossover) , but frequency response is easier to manage with even order crossovers. It's complicated, because there's the electrical crossover order vs. the actual acoustic effect of the crossover, which includes the behavior of the driver in the octaves around the crossover point. Anyway, the virtues of the D50 seem to be on the even order crossover side. As a result, I find myself listening to a lot more classical music, especially small scale classical. A lot of people seem to swear by using a much better power supply for the d50 and I'm not, so the dynamic thing could be very much affected by that.
I do find that it has many of the same virtues and relative weaknesses as my Volt+D does as an amp. With chamber music, jazz vocals, folk, it's a "wow". With straight rock or say McCoy Tyner type jazz, it's very good, but there may be better choices.
I also think bad recordings will sound like bad recordings with the d50. You'll hear things like lack of dynamics or a harsh high end or the fact that the bit rate is lower.
it may be a function of the underlying source. With something like a well recorded string quartet, there's a lot of bloom with the Topping d50 in my system. Bad recordings do tend to sound flat or cold. Bad recordings also tend to sound edgy at high volume with the highs. My take is that good equipment reveals that sort of stuff and lets me hear the limits of the recording itself. I know a lot of people like tube preamps, at least partly because they can make make things sound warmer, in some cases even when the source isn't all that warm. At the harmonic level, I'm really impressed with the d-50.
I am noticing that with small group jazz recordings that when I listen to the bass player, I'm tending to notice the notes first and sort of picking up on the beat second. The d50 is great with arco bass, especially given that I'm listening on 6.5 inch woofers in a small room. It's plucked bass and that kick you can get from the drums that's maybe a little less exciting . There's a longstanding debate about even vs. odd crossovers which amounts to odd is more phase coherent (hence you often reverse polarity on the tweeter in a two way system with a 12 db crossover) , but frequency response is easier to manage with even order crossovers. It's complicated, because there's the electrical crossover order vs. the actual acoustic effect of the crossover, which includes the behavior of the driver in the octaves around the crossover point. Anyway, the virtues of the D50 seem to be on the even order crossover side. As a result, I find myself listening to a lot more classical music, especially small scale classical. A lot of people seem to swear by using a much better power supply for the d50 and I'm not, so the dynamic thing could be very much affected by that.
I do find that it has many of the same virtues and relative weaknesses as my Volt+D does as an amp. With chamber music, jazz vocals, folk, it's a "wow". With straight rock or say McCoy Tyner type jazz, it's very good, but there may be better choices.
I also think bad recordings will sound like bad recordings with the d50. You'll hear things like lack of dynamics or a harsh high end or the fact that the bit rate is lower.
PAGS
Super Member
Hey, I own a tube amp, but I wouldn't piss off the deck, at least not in winter (... don't you eat that yellow snow).
Me too, and I have been know to do the latter, but no eating.
wushuliu
Super Member
From personal experience I believe it is necessary to use a high quality linear power supply with these dacs. And tpa3118 based amps like the Volt D as well.
wyn palmer
Addicted Member
I'm an "amateur hobbyist" but a very infrequent poster on DIYaudio (I think that is where you are referring to)- unlike Scott Wurcer, the designer of the AD797 and the AD711/712 who seems to frequent it. I try to go, generally, for simulated/measured audio perfection in my efforts/postings, but I actually listen to an all tube/tube fet hybrid system and an absolutely not ruler flat moving coil cartridge (The Miyajima Madake).
I also have a fully calibrated Otari MX50 analog tape deck and a, believe it or not, Topping D50 driving a variable gain (roughly 3dB) buffer opamp that I use to drive into the tube preamp to equalize the levels between the tape, phono and digital paths.
I occasionally have friends over for listening sessions and we've compared the sounds on the same actual recording using all three media using a sort-of blind approach, with interesting, and somewhat surprising, results.
sonci
Well-Known Member
Unless we compare these dacs to some common HiFi dacs, like Benchmark, Rega, Chord, Arcam etc there's little point saying how good it sounds. Unfortunately those who buy CHiFi, rarely own expensive dacs.
From my experience I got the D30, and while it was good for the money, it was a joke compared to my cd players or the Benchmark. I said this to their forum but they said that the Topping is neutral and the others are distorted, so probably I like distortion??!
From my experience I got the D30, and while it was good for the money, it was a joke compared to my cd players or the Benchmark. I said this to their forum but they said that the Topping is neutral and the others are distorted, so probably I like distortion??!
wyn palmer
Addicted Member
Well, I, and my cohorts, compared it to a different set of standards- the same recording in the form of a 4xDSD (I think it was 4x) vs. a 45RPM LP, versus a KNOWN second generation 15IPS 1/4" tape (it was recorded from the original master and is of known provenance) played on my Otari MX50, and the D50 was remarkably close to the tape, and one of the four members in the group thought it was best. The LP was- different- to the sound of both the digital and the tape- and I actually preferred it- for example the growl of the relatively closely mic'd cello was just more real, and I have a particular love of the close-in cello. However, all three had remarkably similar spatial presentations- and after the comparison the comment was made that the LP HF response sounded "less smooth", with the digital sounding the smoothest of all.
sonci
Well-Known Member
I don’t get it, why LP should be better than digital? You may like the sound, but certailnly is not as accurate as digital.
As I said some more orthodox comparing like Topping. vs a 1k Dac would be interesting.
I wish a cheap Dac could sound like a high end one, but it doesn’t!
wyn palmer
Addicted Member
What is accurate? You do know what the limitations/biases are in the recording/playback process? Don't you? The divergences from "perfect sound forever" are legion...
I have all three media. Sometimes I prefer one, sometimes another. Generally I would rank them that the tape sounds best, but is occasionally bested by the LP, which is occasionally equaled or bested by the digital. In particular many redbook CDs are just terrible compared to their vinyl counterparts- but by no means all.
sonci
Well-Known Member
When properly mastered, I prefer cds,
airbus
Active Member
Thanks for the reminder. I remembered that I have a 2 amp variable linear regulated supply in my garage, dug it up, and tried it with the D50. It's a similar thing to what happens going from the laptop supply to the linear regulated supply with
the volt+D: it's like a layer of noise, noise that you're not necessarily aware of until it's absent, gets removed from the system.
wyn palmer
Addicted Member
I use a linear supply with the D50 and the buffer and I concur, it does seem to matter despite the high PSRR of the opamps used. However, it's probably more a function of the general quality of the supply and the fact that most switch mode wall warts are really pretty poor.
sonci
Well-Known Member
A well designed dac have power regulators and psu shouldn’t matter, it is shown in the measurements and should be true considering that high end dac like Benchmark, Rme, Chord, all use switching psu.
I think it’s all placebo, if you blind test you can’t pick linear psu, or they are poorly designed and psu matters somehow..
I think it’s all placebo, if you blind test you can’t pick linear psu, or they are poorly designed and psu matters somehow..
wyn palmer
Addicted Member
All well and good, although it's not clear that you read my post #217, but the D50 can be PC USB powered or it can be powered from an external source and I do not believe that it has internal regulators- the PC USB out can after all have an output voltage of c. 4v (and can be very noisy). So, the external supply is a substitute for the really poor USB cable supply.
If you use an external 5v source you could use a 5v output switch mode cell phone wall wart, which I have done, and the results are better than the USB from the PC but not great, or a linear, low noise one which is equivalent to your better internal regulators, with excellent results. There is more than one path to the same outcome...
airbus
Active Member
There's an old story, possibly just an urban legend, about an aeronautical engineer who published a paper that explained why bumblebees shouldn't be able to fly. My
time in audio has frequently taught me that things that should matter sometimes do. It could be a placebo sort of thing; I'm not in a position to do a blind test.
At the same time, I think the idea that the data tells me that you shouldn't be able to hear a difference, is potentially not really good science. The question to explore is
why more than a few people are hearing a difference. The answer may well be that it's just an illusion. It also could be a lot of other things, like power supply rejection measurements
aren't measuring everything that's audible. It wasn't that long ago that minor phase differences weren't considered that big a deal in real world audio. fwiw, i've been around high end audio enough
to know that very high end manufacturers cut corners in really surprising ways sometimes. Just because a dac is 2k doesn't mean they implemented the best possible power supply.
When it comes to sensory memory, there's this interesting netherworld around double blind tasting. On the one hand, there are specialists in the perfume world who can pick up differences in
concentration of certain elements at astonishingly low levels. On the other hand, there are endless mischievous experiments with blind wine tastings where the tasters were given the identical wine
and went on and on about the differences. With something as complex as music, we go back and forth between being the wine connoisseurs and the perfume technician. I suspect most of us are
the wine people and I'm likely one of them the vast majority of the time.
time in audio has frequently taught me that things that should matter sometimes do. It could be a placebo sort of thing; I'm not in a position to do a blind test.
At the same time, I think the idea that the data tells me that you shouldn't be able to hear a difference, is potentially not really good science. The question to explore is
why more than a few people are hearing a difference. The answer may well be that it's just an illusion. It also could be a lot of other things, like power supply rejection measurements
aren't measuring everything that's audible. It wasn't that long ago that minor phase differences weren't considered that big a deal in real world audio. fwiw, i've been around high end audio enough
to know that very high end manufacturers cut corners in really surprising ways sometimes. Just because a dac is 2k doesn't mean they implemented the best possible power supply.
When it comes to sensory memory, there's this interesting netherworld around double blind tasting. On the one hand, there are specialists in the perfume world who can pick up differences in
concentration of certain elements at astonishingly low levels. On the other hand, there are endless mischievous experiments with blind wine tastings where the tasters were given the identical wine
and went on and on about the differences. With something as complex as music, we go back and forth between being the wine connoisseurs and the perfume technician. I suspect most of us are
the wine people and I'm likely one of them the vast majority of the time.
jozeppy26
Active Member
I believe several studies have shown that a known price per bottle is the greatest influence both when rating wines and when subjectively measuring the enjoyment level of the wine. I suspect this is the case with a lot of audio equipment. The placebo effect is real and measurable (for example, tylenol is just as effective as placebo when treating pain). That 2K DAC suddenly sounds far more clear and detailed with tighter and more accurate bass. Your brain makes it true the moment you are aware of a price gap between DACs.
Do measurements matter? Well sure, but do we really know to which degree? Absolutely not. What would actually be helpful to consumers is a double blind study across several brands and models of DACs. The rest just really barely matters.
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