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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Zilch has asked me to add a link to my Barzilaywave project to this thread as a way to keep all the waveguide threads linked together.

I proposed that a link be added to a page with all other specific build threads others have started. I hope this is a good idea to keep everyones projects organized. I think it would be a nice way to reference other peoples specific build threads.

Link to my Barzilaywave project: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=191101

Any comments or ideas are welcome. :yes:
 
Redboy's Barzilays and I have some history here on AK:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=104697

Duffinator found a pair of similar, perhaps the same, actually, here locally, and he did the PT waveguide/LE14A thing with them. I believe everyone who has heard them has been stunned by their performance:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=136160

In the end, Duff's components were all upgrades from the entry-level EconoWave design (he just upgraded the woofers today, in fact,) but they clearly illustrate a successful approach to Barzilay cabs for due consideration.

*******

Recall that EconoWave grew out of previous intense work Jack and I did with Altec Valencias and 811B horns, some of that documented here on AK. Needless to say, our findings were not well received by Altec enthusiasts, but once they got over the bad news, many realized that we had clearly defined an upgrade path which a group of AKers pursued, ultimately with considerable satisfaction.

From this we learned that, while 811B and 511A horns have their pluses, more modern waveguides easily outperform them in many respects, particularly as relate to practical two-way loudspeaker design. Several E'Wavers have now done direct A/B comparisions with vintage Altecs, and while EconoWave may look out of place substituting for 811B in Valencia, or simply stupid sitting atop A7, sonically, it's a worthy challenger. There are other larger and more expensive modern horns and waveguides that will easily stomp these vintage Altecs, performance-wise; I've shown a couple of them in other threads here on AK.

We should all be thankful that there are still plenty of Altec fans out there willing to work with them and who love the sound. I think it will be a VERY long time before Jack's Valencias go on the block, for example, but that doesn't deter him from also enjoying the pleasure of DIYing with these newer design concepts.

*******

I believe the Dayton woofer you have selected may not be an optimum choice for building EconoWave, subject to verification that it actually plays well up through the region of 1.6 kHz, nominal. That's a "push" for many 15" drivers optimized for low-frequency extension. I'd say "Go for it and see" if it weren't for their cost, which is not insubstantial. If Gordon says they'll work, then fine; otherwise, rethink the choice.

A second major issue is whether or not the Barzilay baffle can accommodate both a 15" woofer and the EconoWaveguide. There may be a way to get both of them in there, but it doesn't seem worth it if the performance is compromised from the outset. You don't have to use a 15" woofer to get great bass from those cabs. Remember also that even LE14As earned a well-deserved reputation for "muddy midrange" when they were crossed with tweeters at 2 kHz in vintage JBL products such as S99 Athena. They seem to work satisfactorily with E'Wave, however, both by measurement and listening evaluation.

********

Notes:

Vb is the NET box volume.

Lv is the length of the vent; Dv is the diameter.

Don't stuff vented alignments unless you have a specific and verified purpose for doing so.
 
As a late comer, I need to ask a for some help with the crossover. For my 414s and 806s, I've been using home made n800f crossover with Zilch designed zobel and t filter. Would this be ok or do I need to build from the scratch? My drivers are 16ohms.

Thanks
 
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As a late comer, I need to ask a for some help with the crossover. For my 414s and 806s, I've been using home made n800f crossover with Zilch designed zobel and t filter. Would this be ok or do I need to build from the scratch? My drivers are 16ohms.

Thanks

Mr. T:
IIRC, the T filter you have will work on BMS. I tried this with D220, and it does not work. Not enough compensation. I think you will be building new crossovers if u want Econowave.

414s should be over 95dB efficient, right? So build the hotter high pass version linked on the reference page.
http://audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=90113&d=1210028233


Don't know about your Zobel, but if it worked before, it should work here, same woofer, right?
 
Crossover question

414s should be over 95dB efficient, right
?
Yes!
Don't know about your Zobel, but if it worked before, it should work here, same woofer, right?
Right. Same woofer.
Ok. I see the schematic. They are designed for 8ohms. So, what do I need to do to accommodate my 16ohm drivers?

Thanks
 
Just looked at the n800f schem and it has a 3.5 uH/10.5uf in the low pass. Maybe u can try your existing coil, at 16 Ohms.

If that's what u have.
 
Thanks

I think the low pass is pretty straight forward. But high, especially, t filter is pretty complicated to me. Do I keep the same R values?

MrT
 
Thanks

I think the low pass is pretty straight forward. But high, especially, t filter is pretty complicated to me. Do I keep the same R values?

MrT

Mr. T, If you are building an EconoWave system with JBL or Pyle waveguides and Selenium D210Ti or D220Ti drivers, just use the EconoWave crossover schematic detailed in this thread. It doesn't have a T-filter, but does have the HF compensation to make your Selenium driver sound great on either waveguide.

If you are looking for help using the Altec Hi Frequency drivers, it isn't in this thread. Do a search for info on Altec HF drivers and their compensation
 
Hi Jack

I am building a Plye waveguides with d220tis. The schematic provided in the thread is for 8ohms. And my D220tis are 16ohms. So, how do I implement the schematic for 16ohms is my question.

Thanks
 
Thanks

I think the low pass is pretty straight forward. But high, especially, t filter is pretty complicated to me. Do I keep the same R values?

MrT
Use the Econo-hi-pass and the low pass for 414Z; the low pass on the Econowave schem is generic.
Change those values for 16 Ohms.

So to reiterate, you will scrap the hi pass of your old filter.
 
Hi Jack

I am building a Plye waveguides with d220tis. The schematic provided in the thread is for 8ohms. And my D220tis are 16ohms. So, how do I implement the schematic for 16ohms is my question.

Thanks

double the inductance and halve the capacitance.
 
I am going to build a new high filter. The schematic is for the 8 ohms. no? I know 4.7uf needs to be divided into 2 and .6mh needs to be timed 2. But what do I do with 24ohm (R2) 1.5uf (C3), and 15 ohm (R1). That's where I am stuck at. I know this is a dummas question.:D

MrT!
 
Hey Rider

U here? Thanks man. I am very excited about this project. Since we began our project over at the lansing, i've been tinkering with my 806as and 811bs. They dive off at around 6-7k. Then again my software is free online stuff. So don't mark my word. I am keeping them for my museum (more like my closet) along with my JBL123s. They look cool. But the sound wasn't too exciting. But I do like my 414s a lot. I am waiting on my pyles.

By the way. No luck with BMS. May be I will get them next year.
 
Mr T. Here is the change of values I gave a builder a few posts ago, who was using 16 Ohm Selenium drivers. We never heard back from him, so we don't know if the capacitor value chosen for C3 was correct or not, but the other changes are pretty simple to determine.

C1 becomes 2.34 Microfarads (a 2 Microfarad in parallel with a .33 Microfarad is close enough). L1 becomes a 1.2 Millihenry.

The D220Ti is spec'ed to be about 109 DB on a horn, so you will need to throw away roughly 6 DB, which will leave the ability to adjust the tweeter just a bit higher than the woofer with the L-pad. Since I don't have any of your drivers to test with, I would start with R1 equals 15 ohms, which should throw away about the proper amount. R2 should be 33 Ohms. The compensation capacitor C3 would be about right at .68 Microfarads.

The resistors may need some tweaking, but this should be very close. Let us know how they sound.

Let us know whether the value of C3 is close enough.
 
Yeah, well, click the post count on the forum index page to see who the bigmouths are. :tongue:

80 members have contributed to the thread thus far.... :yes:

70,005/2009 = 34.8457​

Big mouth number two reporting for duty sir!:D

russellc
 
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