Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[Rex Everything]

Should work fine. If you like the result and the baffles are removable, another E'Waver is working with integrating the waveguides into Madrids. We have not seen the outcome yet, however:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2260213#post2260213


There are probably better options for L110 tweeters. Check over on LHF.... :yes:

Thanks for the thoughts and links Zilch.

The baffles that have the current speaker set up are removable as they have just been screwed over the original baffles. I'm wondering about porting but I'll go take a look at the link and see what kinda info is there.

Forgot to ask ya Zilch, what is the efficiency rating of the model 14 woofer?

 

[Zilch]

Forgot to ask ya Zilch, what is the efficiency rating of the model 14 woofer?

No clue, but the difference between the two crossovers requires only one different resistor and one cap, so it's not a big deal to anticipate trying both.... :yes:

 

[Bauhausler]

You've always had difficulty generating adequate bass in that room, as I recall. This'll be a good test.... :yes:

This room is 900 sf and full of stuff. It eats bass. Right now I have the one finished speaker against the back wall, sitting 24" up. This seems like a good compromise, as the wall/floor junction produces too much boom. Speaking of boom, I'm playing my favorite woofer break in CD: <a href="http://www.discogs.com/release/60098"> High Priests of Electronic Dub. </a> This will warm your voice coils right up.

One concern that I have is the position of the crossover relative to the compression driver's magnet. I placed the xovr inside the back panel directly behind the WG. There's not more than 3" between them. Is the driver's magnetic field likely to interfere with L1 and L2? I'll move it if so.

 

[Russellc]

Thanks for the thoughts and links Zilch.

The baffles that have the current speaker set up are removable as they have just been screwed over the original baffles. I'm wondering about porting but I'll go take a look at the link and see what kinda info is there.

Forgot to ask ya Zilch, what is the efficiency rating of the model 14 woofer?

Looks like you are on the right track Rex, you'll love the project. Zilch is of course right on about the crossover, theres only a couple of parts difference in the compensation. When I was playing with it early on, I had the output prior to the compensation screwed into a barrier strip, then had wires from the compensation on the other side. I could change between the two crossovers by just unscrewing a couple of places, changing out, and re tightening. The wire nut ( "Zilch nuts" ) method also allows quick change of crossover parts with out heating up the soldering iron...until you're done at least. Then see about board availability by contacting Jack, or read the sticky on the speaker page about self etching. Makes the crossover quite neat and pro looking!

If you decide to trek over to Jay's, give me a shout and if in town I could come by and cruise you guys to Casa Russellc to hear these things in action.
And you could bring the MItsu parts as well!

Later,

Russellc

 

[Zilch]

One concern that I have is the position of the crossover relative to the compression driver's magnet. I placed the xovr inside the back panel directly behind the WG. There's not more than 3" between them. Is the driver's magnetic field likely to interfere with L1 and L2? I'll move it if so.

I don't believe it's an issue, but I confess I've never tested that. The magnetic field out the rear of a compression driver doesn't seem to have much intensity. Screws stick to the side, not the back, in my experience....

 

[Zilch]

Sidebar: An Observation

I've been through this thread many times reviewing projects and proposals, and providing what I hope are timely and reliable responses to inquiries for information. One thing that stands out is the fact that for every project actually built, there's plenty more that remain merely intended, and that's somewhat of a shame and a disappointment.

All we can do to help y'all over the hurdles is be here to do that, and there's now more members who have built E'Waves, and are ready and willing to share their knowledge and experience from having done so, than most any other project on the internet.

I'll cite the Bauhausler's excellent tutorial as example. Once he decided to build and got the materials together, it took him less than 6 hours to make it happen. Building E'Wave is a piece of cake and a slam dunk, not to mention a bunch of fun, to boot. We don't even know if he's gonna like the outcome yet, but I believe he'd be the first to tell everyone what pleasure doing it has brought him already. He worked through his own issues here and now offers up his unique experience for any and all to share.

E'Wave -- just DO it! :thmbsp:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2295983#post2295983

 

[TnT2]

Zilch,

I have been lurking the past few weeks. I was hesitant at first because I read a few posts concerning the aggressive nature of the Selenium drivers. Since I have been spending a bit of money lately to support the DIY community (tube driver board kit and capacitors) I was hesitant to spend that much money on the B&C DE250. Well, I ended up ordering the Selenium D220Ti and parts earlier this week when I remember that I have a $20 coupon code from PE that needs to be used by 12/01. One question, though. PE ran out of the 1.5mH iron core inductor so ended up ordering the 1.5mH Janszen air core. IIRC, the air core is only about $2 more than the iron core so why is it that I see the iron core on both this and the Indignia project?

My plan is to try the EWG with the JBL 2225H in the 4507 cabinet (with the 2426J/2370 horn disabled). I also bought some resistors in case I want to try the Altec 414C 12" drivers that I also have. I don't have cabinets for them though so that project is way way down the line. I won't have any updates until I finished my tube amp conversion project. Thanks.

TnT2

 

[Russellc]

Zilch,

I have been lurking the past few weeks. I was hesitant at first because I read a few posts concerning the aggressive nature of the Selenium drivers. Since I have been spending a bit of money lately to support the DIY community (tube driver board kit and capacitors) I was hesitant to spend that much money on the B&C DE250. Well, I ended up ordering the Selenium D220Ti and parts earlier this week when I remember that I have a $20 coupon code from PE that needs to be used by 12/01. One question, though. PE ran out of the 1.5mH iron core inductor so ended up ordering the 1.5mH Janszen air core. IIRC, the air core is only about $2 more than the iron core so why is it that I see the iron core on both this and the Indignia project?

My plan is to try the EWG with the JBL 2225H in the 4507 cabinet (with the 2426J/2370 horn disabled). I also bought some resistors in case I want to try the Altec 414C 12" drivers that I also have. I don't have cabinets for them though so that project is way way down the line. I won't have any updates until I finished my tube amp conversion project. Thanks.

TnT2

I think I may have discussed this with you before, but man are you going to be happy. I have the same box, did have 2225H in it, (now 2235H) and with the >95 db crossover and selenium 220 ti, it is a slammin combo. Big huge and clear, I have no "AGRESSIVE" sound at all. The 2235H is a bit more HI FI with more low bass, but the 2225H was plenty in that dept, and the midrange slam is incredible. Have no doubts, you will love this combo! Feel free to bounce any questions you may have. I may start my own thread as I am seeing a few more considering the 4507/4647 setup as the bass end of an Econowave. I still have a set of 2225H drivers, and I dont think I will recone them, they really have unreal punch. Remember to hook the hot side of the crossover out put to the black post, as both the 2225H and 2235H produce positive output with the hot to black. This is covered in the thread back when I first got the JBL boxes.

The Iron core coil will likely have less resistance than an air coil with the same guage wire. as to how much this will throw things off I dont know. It may take some tweeking to get right, I'm sure someone more knowledgeable like Jack or Zilch who designed the crossover in the first place could say. Try it and tell us, those dam coils are back ordered until the end of Dec. I believe.

Russellc

 

[Zilch]

I have been lurking the past few weeks. I was hesitant at first because I read a few posts concerning the aggressive nature of the Selenium drivers. Since I have been spending a bit of money lately to support the DIY community (tube driver board kit and capacitors) I was hesitant to spend that much money on the B&C DE250.

It's no secret that I like mylar-diaphragm compression drivers better than titaniums, generally, but "Econo" was a major design parameter here. Jack an I both gave D220Ti a thorough shakedown, and found them to be excellent entry-level drivers for this project. Frankly, I was surprised, and I speculated that their good performance is in part due to the unique "Tree-of-Life" embossing of their diaphragms.

One question, though. PE ran out of the 1.5mH iron core inductor so ended up ordering the 1.5mH Janszen air core. IIRC, the air core is only about $2 more than the iron core so why is it that I see the iron core on both this and the Indignia project?

Look at the DCRs. Even the 15 Ga. Jantzen air core is higher than the specified I-Core.

Is that going to make a huge difference, or even an audible one, for that matter? Probably not. There are tradeoffs. Many would never use a laminated core inductor in a quality crossover design. We picked it because it is inexpensive, conveniently mounted, and works. YMMV, of course.... :yes:

 

[Bauhausler]

I've been through this thread many times reviewing projects and proposals, and providing what I hope are timely and reliable responses to inquiries for information. One thing that stands out is the fact that for every project actually built, there's plenty more that remain merely intended, and that's somewhat of a shame and a disappointment.

All we can do to help y'all over the hurdles is be here to do that, and there's now more members who have built E'Waves, and are ready and willing to share their knowledge and experience from having done so, than most any other project on the internet.

I'll cite the Bauhausler's excellent tutorial as example. Once he decided to build and got the materials together, it took him less than 6 hours to make it happen. Building E'Wave is a piece of cake and a slam dunk, not to mention a bunch of fun, to boot. We don't even know if he's gonna like the outcome yet, but I believe he'd be the first to tell everyone what pleasure doing it has brought him already. He worked through his own issues here and now offers up his unique experience for any and all to share.

E'Wave -- just DO it! :thmbsp:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2295983#post2295983

Thanks, Jack. We spent far more time hashing out these issues than I actually spent doing the build. It wasn't difficult at all and I had a good time. There are no special tools needed. The woodwork, soldering and assembly require minimal skill. I was prepared for 'challenges' and none came up. Considering how good the result sounds it was a great investment of effort.
I'll keep adding to the ULAEWG thread referenced above as I listen more and build Unit II. After the official group audition at the Dec. SMAC meetup there will be more independent observations as to the sound quality. I'm looking forward to comparing these to DJNagle's ESS based ones.

Perhaps a link to my build thread should be placed in one of the early posts in this one so people dropping by out of curiosity can find an example of the project in one place.

 

[Zilch]

Perhaps a link to my build thread should be placed in one of the early posts in this one so people dropping by out of curiosity can find an example of the project in one place.

Click "Member Projects" on Page 1, and then your name.... :thmbsp:

 

[Rapidroy]

I'm jumping aboard..

I just called JBL (its funny to think what the order takers are thinking selling all the horns) and got a couple of them coming to me, now I need to get the other stuff together. I think I'm #2 with the Altec 872a Madrid e'wave. for now I'll put them on top and someday I'll make new baffles. My plan is to disconnet the hf speaker and go with the >95 xover. If I make new baffles will I need to cut a small port like to old one has?

 

[Paratima]

E'Wave -- just DO it!

Too funny! I just called JBL to order the HF waveguides. Talked to Dave. Dave said, "And what's the part number?"

I told him, "338800-001."

Dave sez, "Let me guess. You're probably going to be hooking these up with some Selenium drivers, right?"

I laughed and said, "How in the world did you guess?"

Dave said, "You wouldn't believe how many orders we've had from THAT THREAD on AudioKarma."

"Oh," I said, "I bet I would."

So, maybe they haven't all been built, but there's a whole bunch of "in progress" EWG's goin' on. :thmbsp:

 

[TnT2]

Russell,

Yes, we discussed it before. In fact, it was your enthusiasm for the JBL/EWG combo that got me excited. We also talked about the convertibility of the 2225H to 2235H. I will try the 2225H with the EWG first before making any decisions, though. I read about the impressive bass (more quick than real low) that you are reporting. I may have missed it, but what amp are you using? Solid state? Most of my amps are tube-based so I will remain with them for now. Just trying gauge if I will be able to replicate the slam that you referred to. Also, I guess I never got to the part of this huge thread about the need to switch positive and negative connections on the 2225H. Didn't know that at all, but IIRC, when I opened up the cabinet that i have (4671OK, btw) I seem to remember that JBL had the red wire hooked up the the red and black to black. Guess I need to dig out the PDF on the 4671 system. Thanks again.

Zilch, maybe I should have done a back order on the 1.5mH. When I updated the crossover on the Model 19 speaker that I also have, I notice an absence of the upper bass/lower mid frequencies when going from the OEM iron core to the air core inductors. This is most likely due to the DCR differences that you mentioned. I will probably revert to the OEM inductors in the future....but this project seems to be more fun and will be done first.

 

[Zilch]

If I make new baffles will I need to cut a small port like to old one has?

That port is probably wrong for the 420Y, even, but don't worry about it unless you decide to keep those as your final E'Wave woofers.

Reason I say that is that I don't believe you'll get both E'Wave and a 15" woofer on the same baffle, and you'll be retuning the cab for whatever woofer you ultimately use. :yes:

Dave sez, "Let me guess. You're probably going to be hooking these up with some Selenium drivers, right?"

I laughed and said, "How in the world did you guess?"

Dave said, "You wouldn't believe how many orders we've had from THAT THREAD on AudioKarma."

Dave and Carla have been such good friends of E'Wave I should put them both on the "Project Support" list.... :thmbsp:

 

[Russellc]

Russell,

Yes, we discussed it before. In fact, it was your enthusiasm for the JBL/EWG combo that got me excited. We also talked about the convertibility of the 2225H to 2235H. I will try the 2225H with the EWG first before making any decisions, though. I read about the impressive bass (more quick than real low) that you are reporting. I may have missed it, but what amp are you using? Solid state? Most of my amps are tube-based so I will remain with them for now. Just trying gauge if I will be able to replicate the slam that you referred to. Also, I guess I never got to the part of this huge thread about the need to switch positive and negative connections on the 2225H. Didn't know that at all, but IIRC, when I opened up the cabinet that i have (4671OK, btw) I seem to remember that JBL had the red wire hooked up the the red and black to black. Guess I need to dig out the PDF on the 4671 system. Thanks again.

Zilch, maybe I should have done a back order on the 1.5mH. When I updated the crossover on the Model 19 speaker that I also have, I notice an absence of the upper bass/lower mid frequencies when going from the OEM iron core to the air core inductors. This is most likely due to the DCR differences that you mentioned. I will probably revert to the OEM inductors in the future....but this project seems to be more fun and will be done first.

I have used a variety of both tube and SS amps. A P-P 6550 amp, a Dynaco ST 70 with Welbourne mod installed, a solid state JBL 6230, and a Solid state Mitsubishi 150 watt per channel amp. Even the Dynaco provided slam, with an extremely pleasant bloom, which really surprised me. You will be pleased as punch. They had me grinning from ear to ear with every amp I've tried.

That said, I havent tried them with any flea powered SE amps yet...As far as the red to black thing, I got this right from JBL spec sheets on the drivers. The crossover you have may have accounted for this. Its pretty easy to tell, just try them, then switch both speaker hookups polarity and try again while listening to some fairly bass heavy stuff. It will be quite apparent.

Russellc

 

[Russellc]

That port is probably wrong for the 420Y, even, but don't worry about it unless you decide to keep those as your final E'Wave woofers.

Reason I say that is that I don't believe you'll get both E'Wave and a 15" woofer on the same baffle, and you'll be retuning the cab for whatever woofer you ultimately use. :yes:


Dave and Carla have been such good friends of E'Wave I should put them both on the "Project Support" list.... :thmbsp:

Wonder how many Jbl waveguide ( of this particular model) purchases have been made? I'll wager just the number they have sold would be close, how many others would be ordering this? I could be wrong, but I'll wager there are a number of silent builders out there gathering the parts. Once people hear them, the enthusiasm goes up immediately resulting in posts being made. Others are enthused enough to post just from ordering the waveguide! Dont stop, push ahead, this is one of those really worthwhilie projects. all DIY is fun, but some are really good, this one smacks the groove bone a good one....more smiles per gallon than my first tube amp project! Seriously, this results in a very high end result.:thmbsp::yes:

Russellc

 

[djnagle]

Hi All, just got off the phone with Bauhausler and we were talking about how I bi-amped my eWaves. I just split the crossover and left out the L-pad. Will not having the resistance of the L-pad make a difference in the sound??? Cheers.

 

[Russellc]

Zilch, do both the Selenium 220 ti and the JBL 2425H drivers give a positive output with the same hookup?( i.e., red to red, etc.) I assume they do, but have no idea. while a battery shows it with woofer/cone drivers, compression drivers dont reveal this so readily.

Thanks in advance,

russellc

 

[Russellc]

Hi All, just got off the phone with Bauhausler and we were talking about how I bi-amped my eWaves. I just split the crossover and left out the L-pad. Will not having the resistance of the L-pad make a difference in the sound??? Cheers.

I would assume it wouldnt make any difference as long as you can attenuate at the amp or the crossover, Zilch, Jack or Skywave?

Russellc