Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[Zilch]

Thanks Zilch! What does that work out to? Something like first order lowpass at 100hz is what I'm coming up with, but I don't know if that's correct.

Sounds about like right where it wants to be.... :yes:

I believe the volume is about 6 cu ft. I need to double check my measurements.

Measure the internal dimensions.

Barzilays are beautiful vintage cabs, and Duff has shown how to bring them to life with modern loudspeaker technology -- the best of everything.... :thmbsp:

 

[GordonW]

I believe the volume is about 6 cu ft. I need to double check my measurements.

I've got EPI 10" woofers and JBL waveguides + Selenium 220 that I am considering installing. Don't know how well the EPIs will like 6 cu ft sealed, but going to give it a shot.

Also considering going to the 10" Dayton classic, or maybe something else.

Decisions decisions!

Attachment shows after some TLC with Howards restore a finish.

TWO Dayton Classic 10" will work great in 6 cubic feet (3 cubic feet each) vented, tuned to something like 24 Hz. They'll get REALLY low.

Just pack them as close together as possible in a vertical line, and wire them in parallel. You'll need to cut the inductor value in half and double the cap value on the E-wave lowpass section for the woofer, since you'll have 4 ohms if you do that... the overall sensitivity should be around 94dB @ 2.83v, which should put you right around the upper end of the less-than-95dB standard E-wave crossover usable range. Should work out great...

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[GordonW]

Upcoming Events Update

Well, I'm working on Big Ewave Project number 2 now. 8 ft^3 cabinets, each which will have an E-wave flare and a modified EV EVM15B 15" woofer. It's been modded with a different cone profile (I used an Eminence-spec cone) a felt dustcap (the cone and dustcap to smooth out the upper frequency response of the woofer), a longer voice coil winding (the DL15 voice coil- it's got an 11/16" long winding instead of the 1/2" stock winding, for greater X-max) and a softer spider (for more low bass extension). The fabric surround is also coated with Altec-style dope, also in the search for more compliance and more low bass.

I am going to try the standard E-wave crossover first; if that doesn't give me enough HF output, I'll swap out the few parts to make it greater-than-95dB...

Got most of the crossover parts, and am about to cut the new baffles for the new drivers... maybe within the next two weeks, they'll be fired up.

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[jrock7]

zilch is it possible to have the HF xover 8ohms input and the LF woofer xover 4 ohms input (using 2 - 8 inch woofers connected in parallel = 4 ohms)

 

[djnagle]

Does it matter, sound wise, if a box is really tall the thin or short and fat, or the same dimentions on all sides?

 

[Zilch]

zilch is it possible to have the HF xover 8ohms input and the LF woofer xover 4 ohms input (using 2 - 8 inch woofers connected in parallel = 4 ohms)

Yes, check the parts list linked from Page 1; Dave provided alternate component values for 4- and 16-Ohm woofers.

Does it matter, sound wise, if a box is really tall the thin or short and fat, or the same dimentions on all sides?

In detail, yes, particularly if you position them in freespace, i.e., out from walls.... :yes:

 

[Bauhausler]

Well, I'm working on Big Ewave Project number 2 now. 8 ft^3 cabinets, each which will have an E-wave flare and a modified EV EVM15B 15" woofer. It's been modded with a different cone profile (I used an Eminence-spec cone) a felt dustcap (the cone and dustcap to smooth out the upper frequency response of the woofer), a longer voice coil winding (the DL15 voice coil- it's got an 11/16" long winding instead of the 1/2" stock winding, for greater X-max) and a softer spider (for more low bass extension). The fabric surround is also coated with Altec-style dope, also in the search for more compliance and more low bass.

I am going to try the standard E-wave crossover first; if that doesn't give me enough HF output, I'll swap out the few parts to make it greater-than-95dB...

Got most of the crossover parts, and am about to cut the new baffles for the new drivers... maybe within the next two weeks, they'll be fired up.

Regards,
Gordon.

Hey Gordon! What's the view like from around the bend? You're actually custom building woofers from parts selected for their individual characteristics? On the one hand I wish I could do that and on the other hand I sort of wish I didn't know it could be done so I wouldn't have to think about it.
I'm still stuck on the Advent/Dahlquist woofer thing. I want to settle once and for all whether they're really equivalent. There seems to be no consensus on this, with your statements being the most authoritative to date.
So I bought DQ-10 woofers, original. I have Large Advent Masonite and metal frame woofers on hand and I'm borrowing back a pair of DQ20 woofers. I'll refoam them all at the same time with the same materials and compare them electrically. I expect I'll find that except for the Dahlquists' larger dust caps they all fall within the tolerances of identical units. If they don't, I'll report the results here.

 

[rage]

TWO Dayton Classic 10" will work great in 6 cubic feet (3 cubic feet each) vented, tuned to something like 24 Hz. They'll get REALLY low.

Just pack them as close together as possible in a vertical line, and wire them in parallel. You'll need to cut the inductor value in half and double the cap value on the E-wave lowpass section for the woofer, since you'll have 4 ohms if you do that... the overall sensitivity should be around 94dB @ 2.83v, which should put you right around the upper end of the less-than-95dB standard E-wave crossover usable range. Should work out great...

Regards,
Gordon.

Great idea!

I would want 2 8 ohm Dayton 10" speakers then? Will this work with my 8 ohm D220 compression drivers?

Any idea on port size/length?

Boy I'm just bugging you guys to do all of my homework for me!

 

[ROSSO]

Great idea!

I would want 2 8 ohm Dayton 10" speakers then? Will this work with my 8 ohm D220 compression drivers?

Any idea on port size/length?

Boy I'm just bugging you guys to do all of my homework for me!

Yes. Not to belabor the obvious, but two 8 ohm devices in series are equivalent to a single 16 ohm device, so use the low frequency crossover values for 16 ohms. Two 8 ohm devices in parallel are equivalent to one 4 ohm device.

 

[rage]

the reason I asked is by my math I end up with 3ohm speakers when combining the 4 ohm (2 8 ohm woofers in parallel) with the 8 ohm waveguide/compression driver.

maybe my little tube amp won't care?

I am drooling at the thought of E-waves + 2 10" woofers in a big enclosure at 94db sensitivity!!

Budget wise its pretty reasonable also.

 

[Zilch]

the reason I asked is by my math I end up with 3ohm speakers when combining the 4 ohm (2 8 ohm woofers in parallel) with the 8 ohm waveguide/compression driver.

Consider the LF and HF sections separate, because the filters isolate them. You lowest impedance will be one or the other, basically.... :yes:

 

[Bauhausler]

the reason I asked is by my math I end up with 3ohm speakers when combining the 4 ohm (2 8 ohm woofers in parallel) with the 8 ohm waveguide/compression driver.

maybe my little tube amp won't care?

I am drooling at the thought of E-waves + 2 10" woofers in a big enclosure at 94db sensitivity!!

Budget wise its pretty reasonable also.

If you want a flatter impedance curve when using 2 woofers with the ewave top end use 2 16 ohm woofers in parallel or 2 4 Ohms in series. Either results in 8 Ohms, approximately. I don't know the actual impedance of the ewave but it's probably closer to 8 Ohms across most of its range.

Oh, heck. Might as well go measure...

standard econowave crossover. D220Ti on PH612 waveguide. Lpad set at 70%. 8R connected to xovr woofer output.

 

[Russellc]

Hey Gordon! What's the view like from around the bend? You're actually custom building woofers from parts selected for their individual characteristics? On the one hand I wish I could do that and on the other hand I sort of wish I didn't know it could be done so I wouldn't have to think about it.
I'm still stuck on the Advent/Dahlquist woofer thing. I want to settle once and for all whether they're really equivalent. There seems to be no consensus on this, with your statements being the most authoritative to date.
So I bought DQ-10 woofers, original. I have Large Advent Masonite and metal frame woofers on hand and I'm borrowing back a pair of DQ20 woofers. I'll refoam them all at the same time with the same materials and compare them electrically. I expect I'll find that except for the Dahlquists' larger dust caps they all fall within the tolerances of identical units. If they don't, I'll report the results here.

Are any of these Advent woofers the same as was used in their later 2 ways, the ones that kind of look like Vandersteens a little, wood on top and bottom and grill cloth wrap around?

russellc

 

[Russellc]

the reason I asked is by my math I end up with 3ohm speakers when combining the 4 ohm (2 8 ohm woofers in parallel) with the 8 ohm waveguide/compression driver.

maybe my little tube amp won't care?

I am drooling at the thought of E-waves + 2 10" woofers in a big enclosure at 94db sensitivity!!

Budget wise its pretty reasonable also.

I for one hope you follow through with all this. I have looked at the Dayton 10 and 12 inch woofs as a "econo low end" so am interested to see how this works out. Getting the extra sensitivity from 2 woofs also makes it more "high efficiency" not to mention the bass extention this driver is capable of. Carry on!:yes:

Russellc

 

[Zilch]

Oh, heck. Might as well go measure....

WT2 ROCKS! :thmbsp:

 

[GordonW]

Hey Gordon! What's the view like from around the bend? You're actually custom building woofers from parts selected for their individual characteristics? On the one hand I wish I could do that and on the other hand I sort of wish I didn't know it could be done so I wouldn't have to think about it.

BWAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!! (*in best Darth Vader voice*) "Welcome to the dark side..."

For me, since I recone woofers as part of my job, it was the natural next thing to do. Don't have a woofer I need? MAKE one! :thmbsp: As long as I use parts that are common to other speakers (and therefore, likely to have long production runs), I shouldn't have any problem duplicating one, if I need to recone it again in the future...

I'm still stuck on the Advent/Dahlquist woofer thing. I want to settle once and for all whether they're really equivalent. There seems to be no consensus on this, with your statements being the most authoritative to date.
So I bought DQ-10 woofers, original. I have Large Advent Masonite and metal frame woofers on hand and I'm borrowing back a pair of DQ20 woofers. I'll refoam them all at the same time with the same materials and compare them electrically. I expect I'll find that except for the Dahlquists' larger dust caps they all fall within the tolerances of identical units. If they don't, I'll report the results here.

Well, unless there's some sort of voodoo magic pixie dust in there somewhere, they should be very similar. The parts out of each are the same dimensions (voice coil diameter, winding length, thickness of winding layers, wire gauge, spider dimensions and stiffness, cone type and weight, etc)... I'd be surprised if they COULD measure MUCH different. Yes, the different dustcap will make a difference... a small one... but even Advent wound up using the felt dustcap (like Dahlquist) in their later years, so it couldn't have been THAT different...

Regards.
Gordon.

 

[Bauhausler]

WT2 ROCKS! :thmbsp:

It's a great tool, and really easy to use. I was able to easily determine the alteration to the resonant frequency of woofers from using different types of foam surrounds for repair.

I'm a little concerned about the large impedance peak at the crossover point in the Ewave. The last pair of Large Advents are now in a friend's system where he powers them with a pair of Audio Note SE 300B monoblocks. Those amps have a Zout of 2 - 3 Ohms. Off the top of my head, the impedance peak will interact with the amp to produce up to 2dbs of excess output in the narrow crossover region, and probably at the woofer resonance point as well. That's probably enough to be audible.
To correct tha tI could build a series LCR filter to parallel with the speaker to bring the Z in the crossover region down to 8 Ohms or so. I'll have to listen to them first to decide if that's necessary.

 

[Bauhausler]

BWAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!! (*in best Darth Vader voice*) "Welcome to the dark side..."

For me, since I recone woofers as part of my job, it was the natural next thing to do. Don't have a woofer I need? MAKE one! :thmbsp: As long as I use parts that are common to other speakers (and therefore, likely to have long production runs), I shouldn't have any problem duplicating one, if I need to recone it again in the future...



Well, unless there's some sort of voodoo magic pixie dust in there somewhere, they should be very similar. The parts out of each are the same dimensions (voice coil diameter, winding length, thickness of winding layers, wire gauge, spider dimensions and stiffness, cone type and weight, etc)... I'd be surprised if they COULD measure MUCH different. Yes, the different dustcap will make a difference... a small one... but even Advent wound up using the felt dustcap (like Dahlquist) in their later years, so it couldn't have been THAT different...

Regards.
Gordon.

Well, it's Audio so in some people's minds there will always be pixie dust.
Regarding teh dust cap, I think the Dahlquist dust cap has a larger diameter as well as being made from felt. Won't the size of the dustcap affect the response in the top end of the range? The DQ's are all multiways that cross the woofer over much lower than the Advents.

 

[GordonW]

Well, it's Audio so in some people's minds there will always be pixie dust.
Regarding teh dust cap, I think the Dahlquist dust cap has a larger diameter as well as being made from felt. Won't the size of the dustcap affect the response in the top end of the range? The DQ's are all multiways that cross the woofer over much lower than the Advents.

Advent started using the felt dustcap in later days. In fact, all the factory-replacement woofers for Advents that were sold in the 1980s, all had the felt dustcap.

Even if it were slightly different, it's no matter other than just changing the dustcap, if needed. And yes... the DQ does have more 'flexibility' since its got a lower crossover point... either woofer can drop-in to these. OTOH, I've never seen a problem with any Advent with the factory-replacement woofers with felt dustcaps... they sounded just fine, too...

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[GordonW]

Speaking of Advent...

There's one Advent I would LOVE to see someone E-wave... the Advent 2. The one with the double-dihedral mounted twin cone tweeters. Those were always disappointments, IMHO. The small E-wave flare (6x6) in those could make a huge difference, I'd think!

Regards,
Gordon.