Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[Zilch]

No, Deluxe XO is here, dated 2/20/10:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3448405#post3448405

Be sure to take note of the board loading instructions linked there; it's different from the standard topology.... :yes:

 

[Navydoc]

The design is the same one, apparently when I saved the image I put the date I saved the image as the date of the XO design.:sigh:

I will be contacting you via PM to order the boards.

 

[donprice]

These speakers will replace my old Paradigm's in HT, primary use is concerts on blu-ray (hard rock, prog rock, jazz and classical) and assorted action movies.

Got a thumpin' subwoofer to beef up the bottom end?

 

[Navydoc]

Got a thumpin' subwoofer to beef up the bottom end?

I have a 24" sealed DIY sub w/ an 18" Exodus Audio (DIY Cable) Maelstrom-X Gen II driver. At THX ref level on the depthcharge attack from U571 I thought I was under assualt.:guitar:

I am planning on building three more smaller subs (perhaps Wayne Parham's Pi 3's) for "normal" sub duty (~30 to 100 Hz) and the Mal-X for subterranian duty (EQ it flat to 15 Hz). Seems that distributed subs gives the best overall result.

 

[Navydoc]

Read the thread until 3 AM last night, made it to page 562 before my brain started to revolt (could have been the :beer.

 

[Zilch]

As you see, we're havin' nothin' but FUN here.... :tongue:

 

[GordonW]

:thmbsp: :thmbsp: :thmbsp: :thmbsp: :thmbsp:

Further progress!

Yesterday, I bested the heat (almost 90 degrees with 90% humidity, already in early May!), to construct the complementary rear pair of speakers to match the front triplet I built a few weeks ago, for the Main Video room of Anime Weekend Atlanta. The rears have a 10" woofer that I built (custom reconed from some heavy-duty 2.5"-voice-coil 10" frames I found) with the standard E-wave top end. Cabinets are half-width versions of the 15" E-waves in the front (12" wide as opposed to 24", so that they "fit together" in the space of one of the front speakers). Used a variation of the same low-pass as I used on the front (2mH coil, 10uf cap, but with a lower-value Zobel due to the lesser inductance of the 10" woofers as compared to the 15" in the fronts)... and wouldn't you know... the damn thing worked PERFECTLY right out of the gate. Didn't have to change a thing.

If you run it alone, you do want to "bump" the bass a tad on the bass control of most receivers (this will not be a problem, since it will be used in "small" mode in the 5.1 setup- the subwoofer can simply be dialed in to make up the slight deficiency), but they went surprisingly LOW in the bass (as in usable output at 30 Hz!), once the bass control was advanced about one click on my test Technics receiver in my shop. This indicates that they should have decent phase/group delay behavior in the 5.1 system, and that they should have little excursion problems (they did just fine with the 32Hz port frequency- which is right at an octave below the crossover frequency used in the 5.1 setup). They're also pretty efficient- I'd guess at least 92dB @ 1w, and a solid 8 ohm load (no dips to any significant degree anywhere).

I'll get some pictures of the completed system, all together (these new speakers with the others I posted pics of before), both separated for use, and in their packed configuration as twin rolling "monolith" towers, for easy transport and setup.

 

[Navydoc]

Need assistance with box modeling

As you see, we're havin' nothin' but FUN here.... :tongue:

This is fun! I ran my plan by the launch authority and was rejected! She did not like the PE Trap cabinets, wants a style more in line with the sub I built last summer. So I am looking at building a 3 ft^3 cabinet (30" H x 17" W x 15" D) w/ a 1.5" front baffle (all others at 0.75"). Construction will be Baltic birch.

Ran the box on WinISD and Jeff Bagby et al Woofer Box Model and Circuit Designer (Ver 4.5). Curves are at 200 W/1 M. Not exactly sure which of the resulting curves is the best - need assistance from the group.:scratch2:

I can do woodworking- but I CANNOT design!

Thanks in advance for any guidance and suggestions. This place is awesome!

p.s. Up to page 686, this a long hard slog!!!!!

 

[Zilch]

Sealed looks fine for use in HT @ 80Hz XO.

Stand-alone, I'd be getting extended bass out of them in that size cab.... :yes:

 

[GordonW]

Even for HT, I'd be inclined to use either the red or green curves. No need to make a "gap" at the crossover point.

With a sub, the green curve could be nice.

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[donprice]

I vote for blue or green with HT XO @ 60 Hz. Why? Because that's close to what I did with the 3015 in a 5 ft^3 box.

Not that any of of your choices are bad...they are all good...:thmbsp:
Edit - I meant blue or red.

 

[Navydoc]

Thanks

Sealed looks fine for use in HT @ 80Hz XO.

Stand-alone, I'd be getting extended bass out of them in that size cab.... :yes:

Even for HT, I'd be inclined to use either the red or green curves. No need to make a "gap" at the crossover point.

With a sub, the green curve could be nice.

Regards,
Gordon.

I vote for blue or green with HT XO @ 60 Hz. Why? Because that's close to what I did with the 3015 in a 5 ft^3 box.

Not that any of of your choices are bad...they are all good...:thmbsp:

Thanks for the feedback...I appreciate the assistance. To me the blue seems to have the best bass response and I was leaning towards that tuning freq. The sealed box may cut off to soon as my basement HT room is pretty large and open (shaped like Utah, 18' x 35' x 8') so I don't think I get a lot of room gain. I am now thinking the green (35 Hz) w/ an HPF set around 60 Hz.

What makes this hard is that Wayne Parham posted the follwoing on the Pi Speakers forum at audioroundtable this weekend.

"I've noticed a tendency for some DIY'ers to try and push the midwoofer to provide deeper bass output. I can understand the temptation, but I think it is best to relax the bass extension requirement, if high sound quality is the goal. The midwoofer is doing double duty in a speaker like this, providing midrange and bass. Pressing the midwoofer to provide subwoofer frequencies will ultimately impact midrange quality.

Deep bass from a two-way is probably a reasonable goal for a secondary bedroom system, but when going for higher sound quality, I think it makes more sense to align the mains for gradual rolloff and employ a multisub arrangement to simultaneously provide the deep bass extension and smooth room modes. To that aim, most of my loudspeakers have bass response that is slightly overdamped, vented to reduce excursion but with a gradual rolloff something like a sealed box."

I am on the quest for the highest quality sound and the eWaves clearly seem the best way to get there w/o spending obscene amouts of cash. In addition to HT I also listen to music on the system (primarily classic rock, blues and jazz), when listen in two channel I would like the system to sound like my magnepans in my rarely used two-channel rig (6 year old stole my room for toys and assorted crap :tears.

Am I being bass greedy??? Will pushing the bass with the 35 Hz tuning (green curve) degrade the mids???

I sincerely appreciate all the work Zilch, Jackgiff and others have put into this open forum product. Be prepared for an endless stream of questions in the coming weeks once I start the build (about a month until the navy sends me home for two months to build speakers).

 

[buzzardmtn]

No, Deluxe XO is here, dated 2/20/10:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3448405#post3448405

Be sure to take note of the board loading instructions linked there; it's different from the standard topology.... :yes:

Any need to change any XO values for continual use....i.e. jamming house party.....???

 

[GordonW]

Wayne seems to be expressing an affinity for the green curve. Over-damped vented box, to reduce excursion. That would be my instinct as well- either the green or red. BTW: That's also what Tannoy does on many of their speaker systems in recent decades... and I have yet to see many people complain about the quality of bass of most modern Tannoys...

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[gwing]

Not being happy with the finish on my boxes I decided to cheat. I bought a pair of RtR 1530 speakers took out the drivers and econo-waved them. At ~$100 each including shipping they were a good choice for me. The boxes are 3/4" MDF with black ash vinyl covering, 38"x17"x11". I did have to make a speaker ring to adapt the 12" Dayton to the 15" hole and shutoff one port. When done you have a nice looking econowave and some spare drivers to play with. @ only $30 more per box than the trap cabs it might be a viable option for somebody else.

 

[Navydoc]

Wayne seems to be expressing an affinity for the green curve. Over-damped vented box, to reduce excursion. That would be my instinct as well- either the green or red. BTW: That's also what Tannoy does on many of their speaker systems in recent decades... and I have yet to see many people complain about the quality of bass of most modern Tannoys...

Regards,
Gordon.

Thanks for the additional information!

 

[badmusician]

From five minutes playing in Win ISD, I'd say 3 ft^3 is a bit too big for the 3012LF. Look at 2 ft^3 / 35 Hz vs. 3 ft^3/ 35 Hz. The smaller box loses a only touch of output around 40 Hz, but has better power handling, lower excursion for any given power input, lower port velocity (given equal sized ports) and lower group delay within the passband. Plus a smaller cabinet (all things being equal) will have stiffer walls, take less material and be lighter to move around.

Bill

This is fun! I ran my plan by the launch authority and was rejected! She did not like the PE Trap cabinets, wants a style more in line with the sub I built last summer. So I am looking at building a 3 ft^3 cabinet (30" H x 17" W x 15" D) w/ a 1.5" front baffle (all others at 0.75"). Construction will be Baltic birch.

Ran the box on WinISD and Jeff Bagby et al Woofer Box Model and Circuit Designer (Ver 4.5). Curves are at 200 W/1 M. Not exactly sure which of the resulting curves is the best - need assistance from the group.:scratch2:

I can do woodworking- but I CANNOT design!

Thanks in advance for any guidance and suggestions. This place is awesome!

p.s. Up to page 686, this a long hard slog!!!!!

 

[Markus111]

Now that AK Fest is over :tears: I made a little progress on the JBL 123 Delux ewaves. I'm not sure that I need to make this cabinet aperiodic. Now that it's all together, the bass is pretty nice. In the frequency plot, the blue line is my simulated response, and the red line is measured. The peak at 3khz is making it sound a little aggressive. I'm going to try to tame that a bit. Otherwise, these are starting to sound quite nice. Those DE250's really sing! My simulated vertical node at the crossover frequency is shown. I haven't measured verticals yet, but I can't tell much of a difference from sitting to standing, so I think things are pretty good so far!

Markus

 

[skywave-rider]

The plots look quite nice, Markus, and the box looks good as well.

How did you measure the system response (red) all the way down through the lows?

Curious to see how measured polars reflect your sims. And did you use Soundeasy for your x-o design?
:thmbsp:

 

[Zilch]

That is all looking very nice. It'll be interesting to see where the inverse vertical null actually falls, indicating the true forward axis.

Were there any eWaves at AK Fest?

[Post a pic showing both cabs, and we can make you "Official"...." :thmbsp: ]