Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker
- Thread starter Zilch
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DigitalChris
Member
You're probably right, that's all that's left, really. Maybe Audyssey will compensate for it when the time comes.
Kegger
R.I.P. 1/12/1966 - 6/1/2017
Yes that is very interesting, that's a pretty big difference just switching amps.
(pretty damm flat from 4k to 15k, especially compared to the AVR that drops)
And pretty close using that amp to what we'd expect to see, should sound like
it's suppose to sound as well like that, the slight falling slope in the top is what
some find to be a pleasing sounding top end that isn't harsh, could be just right.
I'd be curious if Chris hears a difference, and if so what he thinks it sounds like. :scratch2:
DigitalChris
Member
That's the thing though, I don't enjoy a very harsh top end. I'm guessing I dread it because when I went to see Sucker Punch in an IMAX theater, the volume was pretty loud but the highs were very harsh and it hurt my ears at one point or another which is what I don't want in my theater.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not going through all this trouble testing the speakers because I think they sound week in the upper end, I'm testing them because they dont seem to be performing up to par, but maybe we just confirmed that it is the receiver and not the speakers. I think I'm ok with that
My next job is to find out where I need to place my wall treatments for reflection points, I also might need to add a 3rd set of side surround speakers because the front row is lacking in the surround area while the back row is performing very well because of the "multiple side surround" approach.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not going through all this trouble testing the speakers because I think they sound week in the upper end, I'm testing them because they dont seem to be performing up to par, but maybe we just confirmed that it is the receiver and not the speakers. I think I'm ok with that
My next job is to find out where I need to place my wall treatments for reflection points, I also might need to add a 3rd set of side surround speakers because the front row is lacking in the surround area while the back row is performing very well because of the "multiple side surround" approach.
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DonQuixote99
just give me some truth
That's the thing though, I don't enjoy a very harsh top end. I'm guessing I dread it because when I went to see Sucker Punch in an IMAX theater, the volume was pretty loud but the highs were very harsh and it hurt my ears at one point or another which is what I don't want in my theater.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not going through all this trouble testing the speakers because I think they sound week in the upper end, I'm testing them because they dont seem to be performing up to par, but maybe we just confirmed that it is the receiver and not the speakers. I should be fine with that
My next job is to find out where I need to place my wall treatments for reflection points, I also might need to add a 3rd set of side surround speakers because the front row is lacking in the surround area while the back row is performing very well because of the "multiple side surround" approach.
To digress on the Imax, there seem to be Imax wars happening as theaters compete for a dwindling audience. Just went to one, and, my companion using a wheelchair, we were seated at the front of the stadium section. Volume was such that I had to go to the restroom and make earplugs out of wet bits of paper towel. It was at hearing-damaging levels I'm sure.
I can't say about distortion at the speakers, because there was tons of distortion at the ears, due to too-high SPLs. Talk about public-be-damned business policy....
skywave-rider
Slumming in Akihabara
That's the thing though, I don't enjoy a very harsh top end. I'm guessing I dread it because when I went to see Sucker Punch in an IMAX theater, the volume was pretty loud but the highs were very harsh and it hurt my ears at one point or another which is what I don't want in my theater.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not going through all this trouble testing the speakers because I think they sound week in the upper end, I'm testing them because they don't seem to be performing up to par, but maybe we just confirmed that it is the receiver and not the speakers. I should be fine with that
My next job is to find out where I need to place my wall treatments for reflection points, I also might need to add a 3rd set of side surround speakers because the front row is lacking in the surround area while the back row is performing very well because of the "multiple side surround" approach.
As Kegger says, that progressive 5dB drop from 4-15kHz is good. I am referring to the chip amp graph. The dip from 15-20k is still a little weird, but I think we've resolved the major issues.
What remains to be done is for you to spend a little time tweaking the Lpads for the best overall response. I would do that with the chip amp in line.
After setting the LPads with the chip amp, switch to the AVR and if you cannot resolve the frequency response issue with the Marantz, apply your eq to compensate for the receiver's response. [I don't know why it's doing that, though. For example, I can switch-in various amps I use here and see little effect on measurements. But I don't know much about AVRs. And it may be that is part of the "sound" of that amp.]
The point is that now you can better trust your measurement system and techniques, and be confident that when you do apply EQ on your AVR, you can verify the actual output from the speakers with measurements. But definitely set the LPADs with the Lepai before you switch over.
I hope I can make a trip up there to hear a movie some time.:thmbsp:
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DigitalChris
Member
I hope so too!
Now about the LPads, what kind of response am I looking for? Unfortunately, no matter how much I adjust the trebble with the LPads, my upper end is only going to get worse.
What's my frequency response goal from 500hz on up I assume?
Now about the LPads, what kind of response am I looking for? Unfortunately, no matter how much I adjust the trebble with the LPads, my upper end is only going to get worse.
What's my frequency response goal from 500hz on up I assume?
DigitalChris
Member
Yes, I am running all of the same cables to each amp except for the speaker wire, I ran new wire to the subs just for the testing purposes and ease of temp installation.
skywave-rider
Slumming in Akihabara
Chris,
Just ry to get it as flat as possible in the crossover region and above. You might already be there. To check the tweak, pay attention to the dip between 2-4 kHz in your measurements. Try to minimize that, and try not to make the hump at 2kHz rise too much. Go for the best balance and remember that the it's not going to be super perfect.
Like I said, you might be in the best spot already, but check it before you switch over to the AVR.
At that point I guess you look one last time to make sure your AVR EQ is out. Then I assume you'll apply EQ to compensate for the AVR's declining HF response. At that point, you could also EQ the crossover region flat if you want. Take your time.
Just ry to get it as flat as possible in the crossover region and above. You might already be there. To check the tweak, pay attention to the dip between 2-4 kHz in your measurements. Try to minimize that, and try not to make the hump at 2kHz rise too much. Go for the best balance and remember that the it's not going to be super perfect.
Like I said, you might be in the best spot already, but check it before you switch over to the AVR.
At that point I guess you look one last time to make sure your AVR EQ is out. Then I assume you'll apply EQ to compensate for the AVR's declining HF response. At that point, you could also EQ the crossover region flat if you want. Take your time.
mccarty350
Super Member
Has anyone done an e-wave in a subwoofer enclosure?
Hey all, I haven't been in the ewave thread for a while but was thinking on doing another pair (I currently have some Nova 8b's I made last year) but one thing that I see pretty often is that box volume on the cabs chosen and commonly used is insufficient. Since the horn can be mounted externally has anyone thought of or made an econowave with a set of 12" drivers mounted in a plain old square subwoofer enclosure of sufficient size to get low bass extension and then simply mounted the horn on top separately? I have a set of Dayton DC-300-8 12" woofers laying around that should in theory be perfect for e-waving laying around with a theoretical 25hz low end that I might be able to get close to if I created an enclosure of sufficient size. Thoughts? Is it foolhardy to just make a big MDF box of sufficient size and then throw the Dayton into it coupled with a standard e-wave cross and a horn perched on top? Any advice on whether to go acoustic suspension or ported for such a design if it is a viable concept?
Hey all, I haven't been in the ewave thread for a while but was thinking on doing another pair (I currently have some Nova 8b's I made last year) but one thing that I see pretty often is that box volume on the cabs chosen and commonly used is insufficient. Since the horn can be mounted externally has anyone thought of or made an econowave with a set of 12" drivers mounted in a plain old square subwoofer enclosure of sufficient size to get low bass extension and then simply mounted the horn on top separately? I have a set of Dayton DC-300-8 12" woofers laying around that should in theory be perfect for e-waving laying around with a theoretical 25hz low end that I might be able to get close to if I created an enclosure of sufficient size. Thoughts? Is it foolhardy to just make a big MDF box of sufficient size and then throw the Dayton into it coupled with a standard e-wave cross and a horn perched on top? Any advice on whether to go acoustic suspension or ported for such a design if it is a viable concept?
skywave-rider
Slumming in Akihabara
Russellc did it a while back, but he's not using that config now:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1831275&postcount=150
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1831275&postcount=150
Econowave project: Which 15-in woofer in 7 cu ft cabinets?
I have some 7 cu ft cabinets (hand-crafted in the 1950s!) which I would like to use for a 15-in woofer Econowave project.
I have modeled several relatively inexpensive (i.e., less than $150 each from PE) 15-in woofers in WinISD, but none of them seem to be very well suited for such large cabinets.
There are several options in the vintage realm (e.g., JBL LE-15, Altec 416, 515 variants), but all of these are priced way too high for my budget.
Can anyone suggest 15-in candidates for less than $150 (new or used) that I should look into? NOTE: I am not considering smaller diameter drivers at the moment.
Thanks for any help.
ccvogel
I have some 7 cu ft cabinets (hand-crafted in the 1950s!) which I would like to use for a 15-in woofer Econowave project.
I have modeled several relatively inexpensive (i.e., less than $150 each from PE) 15-in woofers in WinISD, but none of them seem to be very well suited for such large cabinets.
There are several options in the vintage realm (e.g., JBL LE-15, Altec 416, 515 variants), but all of these are priced way too high for my budget.
Can anyone suggest 15-in candidates for less than $150 (new or used) that I should look into? NOTE: I am not considering smaller diameter drivers at the moment.
Thanks for any help.
ccvogel
Thank you for the suggestion.
[1] I just modeled the Lanzar Pro 15 Max in WinISD. It appears to work best in a closed cabinet. Is that what you used?
[2] I can't seem to find any freq response plots for the Lanzar. Since it is intended for subwoofer use, I assume that you used the LE-14A (900 Hz) version of the Econowave crossover; is that correct?
ccvogel
[1] I just modeled the Lanzar Pro 15 Max in WinISD. It appears to work best in a closed cabinet. Is that what you used?
[2] I can't seem to find any freq response plots for the Lanzar. Since it is intended for subwoofer use, I assume that you used the LE-14A (900 Hz) version of the Econowave crossover; is that correct?
ccvogel
DCinDC
I'm here to fix it
In these two threads I talk about what I did.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=339147
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=325752&highlight=lanzar&page=3
They are in HPM-150 cabinets. About 3 sq feet volume, I think, and ported.
I had no info on the woofers. no modelling, no science, WAG stab in the dark. Worked out very well.
I used an older version of that woofer. I can't remember the model or number. I don't think it was a DVC, though. The motors are probably the same. It has a nice smooth rolloff, I use it without a crossover to the Heils!
I got really lucky, but they sound GREAT. I freely admit I was after the best cheap 15" woofer I could get.
I've blown the dust caps off, but neither woofer has failed yet.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=339147
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=325752&highlight=lanzar&page=3
They are in HPM-150 cabinets. About 3 sq feet volume, I think, and ported.
I had no info on the woofers. no modelling, no science, WAG stab in the dark. Worked out very well.
I used an older version of that woofer. I can't remember the model or number. I don't think it was a DVC, though. The motors are probably the same. It has a nice smooth rolloff, I use it without a crossover to the Heils!
I got really lucky, but they sound GREAT. I freely admit I was after the best cheap 15" woofer I could get.
I've blown the dust caps off, but neither woofer has failed yet.
Thank you all for your work on this truly epic project and thread. Wow.
I just ordered the parts to econowave a pair of Large Advents. I went with the standard crossover values as mentioned on the first page of the thread, and might omit the L-pad since I plan to bi-amp and have gain adjustment.
Has anyone designed/adapted an active crossover for these? I have been wanting to do a crossover, and this would be a great application. Plus 12dB/octave would be relatively simple. I'm considering building one from discreet JFETs instead of opamps.
jsn
edit: done. wow. these rock. http://boozhoundlabs.blogspot.com/2012/08/econowaved-advents.html
I just ordered the parts to econowave a pair of Large Advents. I went with the standard crossover values as mentioned on the first page of the thread, and might omit the L-pad since I plan to bi-amp and have gain adjustment.
Has anyone designed/adapted an active crossover for these? I have been wanting to do a crossover, and this would be a great application. Plus 12dB/octave would be relatively simple. I'm considering building one from discreet JFETs instead of opamps.
jsn
edit: done. wow. these rock. http://boozhoundlabs.blogspot.com/2012/08/econowaved-advents.html
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4343
Super Member
Does the cabinet volume match at least? Same baffle dimensions? Seems not much else is the same...
Could be a nice project if the boxes are pretty much the same size though.
Start of my econowave project
I could not resist... I am going for it.
Found some things I can use locally. A 1.9 cf unfinished enclosures from JBL 4428 studio monitors. Depending on the horn I would put it outside or in the enclosure. I will need to make a new front baffle to fit the horn properly.
I also purchased some old speakers that contained a JBL 2204H 12 inch woofer and a JBL 2344A horn without the compression driver.
Is the 2344A horn any good?
There is a local guy selling a B&C ME15 90x60 exponential horn with DE400Tn drivers. How does the DE400TN compare to the DE250?
I could fit the small JBL clone from parts express easily within the enclusore. The QSC would need to go outside. From what I have read, the QSC is superior.
Any suggestions are appreciated.
Alfredo
I could not resist... I am going for it.
Found some things I can use locally. A 1.9 cf unfinished enclosures from JBL 4428 studio monitors. Depending on the horn I would put it outside or in the enclosure. I will need to make a new front baffle to fit the horn properly.
I also purchased some old speakers that contained a JBL 2204H 12 inch woofer and a JBL 2344A horn without the compression driver.
Is the 2344A horn any good?
There is a local guy selling a B&C ME15 90x60 exponential horn with DE400Tn drivers. How does the DE400TN compare to the DE250?
I could fit the small JBL clone from parts express easily within the enclusore. The QSC would need to go outside. From what I have read, the QSC is superior.
Any suggestions are appreciated.
Alfredo
