:thmbsp:
ADS 1230 or ESS 1a
- Thread starter Squirrely
- Start date
Porkloin
Oscar Heil Groupie
Crossover Points
I can't quite make out the second crossover point on the toggle switch. Is that 5KHz? I hear that if you flip that switch and demote the great Heil to a super tweeter, an alarm goes off at Auto Mojo's place and he sends contracted mercenaries over to "convince you of the error of your ways."
After my A/B testing, I'd be inclined to give them directions to your place. Without that 1 - 5 KHz from the Heils, you might as well have a pair of ADS L-1230s or something.
I can't quite make out the second crossover point on the toggle switch. Is that 5KHz? I hear that if you flip that switch and demote the great Heil to a super tweeter, an alarm goes off at Auto Mojo's place and he sends contracted mercenaries over to "convince you of the error of your ways."
After my A/B testing, I'd be inclined to give them directions to your place. Without that 1 - 5 KHz from the Heils, you might as well have a pair of ADS L-1230s or something.
I will likely try the adding the Elites to the ADS 1230’s on both settings (1khz and 5khz). I want to add in just enough of the Heil to create definition and soundstage. I believe the 1khz setting will provide the best enhancement to the 1230’s so I will likely use them for their low frequency contribution and up. I can’t think of any reason not to. Please don’t send mercenaries to my house. If Automojo sends mercenaries to my house I will come out with my hands over my head and say please don’t convince me.
Porkloin
Oscar Heil Groupie
I only say that as my 1230's seem to extend a bit higher than the Rock Monitors and yet I prefer the ESS, which I translate into it's lower end being the muscle behind it's sound. You may also get an excess that you can't tweak away on the ADS', which means you'll have to serve Mrs. Squirrely quite a few breakfasts in bed to grease her up for that equalizer that's been in the back of your brain for a few years.
You don't want to mess with audio mercenaries. They're not particularly tough or brutal, but they'll make you listen to Bose Acoustimass speaker systems plugged into a 1990's Teac receiver from Costco. My insides hurt just thinking about it.
Naw-no worries.
Curious how this would work as a add on-if you would have any cancelation issues etc still using the ADS tweeter.
I can see some thinking the Great Heils aren't as "high" as some other tweeters because of their dispersion and natural tonality.
Why I never get those saying the Great Heil is harsh/bright-if it is you have another issue besides the Heil.
But that's the flavor sometimes-people go back and forth rapidly between different products in their impatient search for audio nirvana.
Failing to understand (IMHO a willingness) what they are actually hearing.
As a side note again-a rough run with a fully cured (VB1-X) has changed the needed damping significantly to a full piece of 2" Auralex behind the woofers.
This is to deal with back reflections only.
Any more damping then this does 2 very apparent things.
It brings the port tuning down, due to a increase in apparent volume.
Second, in my twin rear port configuration, it's bringing down the effective port q, I'm assuming because ist negatively effecting the air flow and velocity at the ports.
Not by design, but by accident, I almost have to assume the VB 1-x has fine tuned the enclosure in this instance.
The bass sounds very much different from earlier experiments, some has to do with a increase in output efficiency, but I think some has to do (and related to increased output) with the AMT3 enclosure not contributing itself as much.
I'm wondering if this has less to do with damping, and more to do with the walls being more ridged, and thus not 'bowing out' or expanding as much from the air pressure.
Each enclosure used 1 quart, and I really concentrated the thickness on the bottom panel with the last amount, because it's the panel closest to the woofers.
So I have found this treatment is far from a snake oil, but one probably has to get a handle on how it works in conjunction with other factors.
apparently Totem and a few other manufactures use it as well for various reasons.
One thing would have been nice with the double wall AMT3 enclosure-was to have a constrained layer between the two boards, rubber, flexible glue, epoxy etc.
If I was building a speaker cabinet, I would seriously think about-for example instead of using 1" or 3/4" MDF, use to 1/2" board with a constrained layer between the two. The baffle and rear board the same. I bet you would need any bracing and preserve the internal volume, and have to use fewer band-aids such as extra damping etc, and end up with a highly efficient system with low loss.
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Hi Automojo,
It’s been hard to respond to your postings because I don’t have AMT 3’s and because your work tuning cabinets is something I no little to nothing about. I am learning some things though and through your contributions to the thread I am thinking about stuff I never thought about. Port velocity is an example. I think about the cardboard tubes used in a paper towel roll. I used to hum into them when I was a kid. I would hold it to my mouth and in a single tone I would go Huuunn. Sometimes I would go Huuuuuuunnnn. The lesson I learned, but did not know it at the time, is that while keeping a single tone from my vocal cords the sound from, what I called my “hunner” went up in pitch. I think this could be because as my mouth would move from the open shape used to make the “H”, to the “U’s” to the “N’s” my mouth was progressively more constricted. To produce the same vocal tone required moving the same mass of air passed my vocal cords but by changing the shape of my mouth the air velocity coming out of my mouth was increased as it entered the Hunner (tube). So I have to think about the way sound moves through air and the Doppler affect. Doppler is normally thought of relative to a stationary sound source being perceived while the listener is in motion. In this case the listener is in motion and the air caring the sound (vibration) is in motion. Because the single tone (specific vibration frequency) coming from my vocal cords is increasing in velocity as my mouth changes shape the resonant frequency in the tube is changing as the vibrations bounce off the walls of the tube. I knew this as a child and can even feel the frequency changes (vibrations) moving up the tube as I run around the house “Hunning”. I drove my parents nuts with this. I think they preferred this to when I dragged the pots and pans out of the kitchen for my drum set.
I enjoy your contributions to the thread. It makes me think.
Porkloin,
How can you say those mercenaries are not particularly tough or brutal if they are doing that to people. I am not even going to mention the variety of song choices available for torcher (Sky Rockets in Flight, Muskrat Love, Jingle Bell Rock …). Those guys must have been trained by the CIA! Now I’m really scared. I will be sure to use the Heil to its full potential!
It’s been hard to respond to your postings because I don’t have AMT 3’s and because your work tuning cabinets is something I no little to nothing about. I am learning some things though and through your contributions to the thread I am thinking about stuff I never thought about. Port velocity is an example. I think about the cardboard tubes used in a paper towel roll. I used to hum into them when I was a kid. I would hold it to my mouth and in a single tone I would go Huuunn. Sometimes I would go Huuuuuuunnnn. The lesson I learned, but did not know it at the time, is that while keeping a single tone from my vocal cords the sound from, what I called my “hunner” went up in pitch. I think this could be because as my mouth would move from the open shape used to make the “H”, to the “U’s” to the “N’s” my mouth was progressively more constricted. To produce the same vocal tone required moving the same mass of air passed my vocal cords but by changing the shape of my mouth the air velocity coming out of my mouth was increased as it entered the Hunner (tube). So I have to think about the way sound moves through air and the Doppler affect. Doppler is normally thought of relative to a stationary sound source being perceived while the listener is in motion. In this case the listener is in motion and the air caring the sound (vibration) is in motion. Because the single tone (specific vibration frequency) coming from my vocal cords is increasing in velocity as my mouth changes shape the resonant frequency in the tube is changing as the vibrations bounce off the walls of the tube. I knew this as a child and can even feel the frequency changes (vibrations) moving up the tube as I run around the house “Hunning”. I drove my parents nuts with this. I think they preferred this to when I dragged the pots and pans out of the kitchen for my drum set.
I enjoy your contributions to the thread. It makes me think.
Porkloin,
How can you say those mercenaries are not particularly tough or brutal if they are doing that to people. I am not even going to mention the variety of song choices available for torcher (Sky Rockets in Flight, Muskrat Love, Jingle Bell Rock …). Those guys must have been trained by the CIA! Now I’m really scared. I will be sure to use the Heil to its full potential!
Oh, the time alignment of the Heil to the ADS 1230’s. Cancelation is a tricky issue with this particular paring. I will just have to experiment with moving the heil around on top of the ADS speakers. The 1230’s may not be the best choice for this. L810’s or L710’s may be better because all the drivers are on one plane. To align the Heil with the 1230’s I have to consider the woofers on one plane and the mid and tweeter on another plane. I am thinking, ADS engineered the mid and tweeter alignment in their design so I will start by aligning the Heil relative to the tweeter and mid on the ADS and make adjustments for the increased speed of the Heil. This will be interesting for sure. Nothing will happen though until I can set up to bi-amp. As anxious as I am, I am not willing to take any risks with an amplifier.
Porkloin
Oscar Heil Groupie
You're describing me to a tee. Most don't have the advantage of A/B'ing speakers next to one another,which is what it took to solidify my membership in the cult of Oscar. I suppose life would get even better if I were to buck up for some better amplification. Oddly, an SACD player with a better DAC increased the differences between the two competitors as well.
My girlfriend actually did some A/B'ing (comparing speakers, pervert) last night. Although she doesn't share my enthusiasm over audio, she enjoys good hi-fi equipment and has far and away the most delicate hearing I know of. Her conclusion came as quickly as mind did after hooking the Rock Monitors up to a better amp.
I used to be the same as well, but learned to live with stuff for awhile before making changes.
I agree the AMT3's really need a good, powerful amp to sound their best. In a nut shell, it seems to just even everything out nicely and the bass/rhythm keeps up well with the rest of the speaker.
The point out weakness in your system very easily, and probably why some people didn't care for them, or other AMT Heil speakers.
I agree the AMT3's really need a good, powerful amp to sound their best. In a nut shell, it seems to just even everything out nicely and the bass/rhythm keeps up well with the rest of the speaker.
The point out weakness in your system very easily, and probably why some people didn't care for them, or other AMT Heil speakers.
Porkloin
Oscar Heil Groupie
I wonder about the theoretical cancellation effects of the dipole noise coming off the back of the Heil. I got out the foam and the electric turkey knife and tried the various forms of "wings" mentioned in this thread, and for the most part, the effects were non-existent. The most extreme configuration (the foam actually creating a tunnel out the back side) seemed to remove a bit of the spaciousness normally attributed to the AMT - what really separates them from the boxed drivers.
As what's shooting out the front of the Elite would (hopefully) be in phase with the ADS', a simple test would be to duct tape a thick, old copy of Penthouse across the back and see what happens.
From a realistic standpoint, I had a buddy over last night that believes himself to be Godehart Guenther's bastard step child, as evidenced by the number of ADS speakers he owns and the fact that he wants to buy mine. After some barbequed chicken, we did a bit of A/B'ing. He was quick to note how the 1230's and Heils complimented each other quite well when both pair were powered up, although he didn't drive back home with a membership in the church of Heil. My beef was with excessive bass having them run next to each other like that, but I'm betting there will be a shortage of it with both sets of tweet/mids running with the Elites plugged in. It may be necesssary to have those 1230's relatively close to a side wall per the owner's manual.
Porkloin
Oscar Heil Groupie
Hong Kong Phooey
Piano Black Heil to go with the rest of the cheesy lacquered furniture.
You would figure that one who knew of the great Heils would know enough not to pay double for them just to get the pivoting base. I would hope the Asian copy machine would market an Elite complete with a crossover and case.
Further down the list was the Dayton knockoff, more than double the Parts Express price.
Piano Black Heil to go with the rest of the cheesy lacquered furniture.
You would figure that one who knew of the great Heils would know enough not to pay double for them just to get the pivoting base. I would hope the Asian copy machine would market an Elite complete with a crossover and case.
Further down the list was the Dayton knockoff, more than double the Parts Express price.
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I talked with Rick at ESS for a while. They are still selling the Heil Elite under a different name. Instead of having a cabinet and crossover the Heil driver is on a base with the crossover. The Heil is not obstructed like on top of the AMT 1a. Rick said that it is designed to be used in series and that my amp would be safe running off the 4 ohm speaker posts. I have been running these in series for several days and my Eico Hf-87 is not getting hot. I think I am good to go. The sound is fantastic. The richness of the ADS 1230 is preserved and the extreme detail and forward presence is greatly enhanced by the Heil. I think the AMT 1a presents a better soundstage because the Elites are constricted by the enclosure. On the other hand they may need attention to the crossover. I tried to get in there to replace capacitors but the crossover doesn’t want to come out of the cabinet. I am afraid to go further and may take these to someone with more experience in Seattle. One thing I learned for sure came from running the speakers combined and then running only the ADS 1230’s. I can’t go back to the ADS now. Without the Heil they will not satisfy my ear. I am going to keep running this combination for a while and switch back to the AMT 1a’s. I remember that incredible soundstage. It will be interesting to check out how that transition goes. I think I will still be pleased with the 1a’s but the ADS benefit greatly from the addition of the Heil and don’t think I can go back to just the ADS speaker alone. How quickly we get spoiled. Here’s some picks.
Attachments
That would be way beyond my ability. A custom crossover? Not for me thanks. If I were to try something along those lines I would be more inclined to start from scratch and make a 3 way using a 12” cone woof, 3” ADS mid and the Heil on top. Then the crossover would be from the ground up rather than trying to fit something into a pre-existing design. Still way over my skill set.
