ADS 1230 or ESS 1a

[Squirrely]

Thanks for the pick Porkloin. The AMT 3 is about as tall as the ADS 1230. I have never seen AMT 3's before so this helps my perspective.

Stan man, There seems to be little availabel info on the Elite's. If they come through for me I will post pictures and a review. I think sonicly the Elite on top of the ADS 1230 could be amazing. The top of a 1230 may not be the best purch though. An L810 would be a nice flat spot to put them on, but I am not complaining. I am sure I will work it out.

 

[Porkloin]

Thanks for the pick Porkloin. The AMT 3 is about as tall as the ADS 1230. I have never seen AMT 3's before so this helps my perspective.

Note the depth. There's considerably more volume in the AMT3's enclosure as there's a bit more woof to deal with, not to mention the extra volume associated with porting, although I wonder if the port was an ill conceived afterthought.
Placement seems to be more critical with the ESS. These ADS' are not very finicky at all about that.

 

[automojo]

With all the stuffing, the port amount to more or less a Aperiodic enclosure-a leaky sealed speaker.
I think they were trying to smooth out a impedance peak with the port, and help with compression at higher volumes.
My earlier pair with the 12 resistor zobel and 4 ohm woofers seemed to have a slightly better bass response.
Actually stuffing the stock port with the stock woofers makes a slight change, but not much-you feel very little air and little bass from the port compared to a conventional ported speaker, as the stuffing blocks most of the flow, and you essentially have a leaky sealed speaker.
The enclosure is tuned to around 40hz or so.
The only woofers that came close were the Dayton's, and required 2x 3" ports.
Their FS of 41 hz is close to ideal for the AMT3 enclosure, and don't require additional Zobel correction.
To do this the Dayton's need huge and heavy magnets/frames, so in comes the bracing, etc.
The Dayton's don't work too well sealed, so you can't really run them with all that stuffing and stock port, as you end up with a FS around 60hz or so.
Foam on the side walls and behind the woofer, leave the port(s) just like a conventional ported speaker.
2" Auralex IMHO works the best. expensive but work it IMHO. Its a much better quality foam then P.E. etc., and they actually publish absorption specs.
Cascade Audio claims a .5 to 1.5db increase in bass output do to the added impedance mismatch the VB-1X on the interior walls provides, on top of the foam, in a ported setup.
Basically with the Dayton's I was looking for more clean bass output at higher volumes then the stock woofers supplied.
The stock still work good, better then most replacement woofers.
The Eminence 1040SF do as well, but probably need a Zobel to smooth out a midbass peak with these.

 

[Porkloin]

Porkloin Labs Report: Godehard -vs- Oscar

Observation #1 : Construction
This is the most night/day obvious, least argued comparison of the two. The ESS speakers are more typical of the era where detail was regarded as too expensive a luxury. Minimal sanding on particle board with minimal finishing and half of the crossover components hot glued to Masonite stands in contrast to the ADS' smooth matte finishes, well organized PC board crossovers and radius edges. Although the ESS styling has it's retro appeal now in the 21st century, the ADS lines and fabrics were the fashion plates of the day.
Apparently, it took a former rocket scientist to organize all of the crossover components onto a PC board, have all of the wires attached at one end and bolt it to a terminal plate that could be removed by removing four Phillips screws.
In short, the ADS is an entire product ahead of it's time, whereas the ESS gives the (inward) appearance of a 70's piece of manufacturing as a staging point for the timeless technology on top.
In the end, I suppose noting the construction details, albeit akin to shooting fish in a barrel, is rather inconsequential to the actual sound of an audio product. The Dahlquist DQ-10s, the darlings of the vintage audio world, look like pieces of scrap haphazardly thrown together as a junior high shop class final project.

 

[automojo]

At least with the few ADS crossover I have seen, they were laid out nice, caps were ok, but they used fairly light gauge inductor bobbins, which in my experience leads to needless crossover DC resistance.
While the use of silicone and hot glue by ESS appears on the surface cheap, (and a pain to redo 40 years later) I like the idea of a "free flowing' crossover design, with excellent large gauge inductors coils-something you rarely saw in those days-usually the small plastic bobbins, transformers (Klipsch) or maybe solid cores.
Caps could have been better, and resistors (many used sand cast back then as well), but I don't have a problem with the basic thought process in the crossover.
The stock AMT3's woofer could have been better IMHO, but the stock ones IMHO could have been improved with baffle bracing, and perhaps a adjustment to the stock port specs, or just completely sealing them, probably the later.
DLK, another smaller USA based manufacture was they same as far as crossover construction/layout.
They did there higher end cabinets in house, hand wound inductor coils and voice coils, and yes used hot glue, and hard wired crossovers.
They also ran complete test on each completed speaker.
ESS farmed out their cabs, but I don't have a problem with that, as it spreads out more revenue for other smaller business.
I personally dig the appearance of the AMT3's, as their look IMHO has a unique classic look that means business.
Most guest will always comment "what are those? etc.
After a listen-'where can I get some?"
The Germans have their own philosophy of manufacturing etc, and differs from the USA in many ways. Who's is better IMHO is a matter of opinion, at least as it pertains to speakers. I have read enough stories of Oskar Heil's issues with ESS (mainly he wanted a single smaller woofer right next to the Great Heil-8"'s or less), but he could have gone German, but didn't-water under the bridge.
Nelson Pass had a hand in the early ESS design AMT1's and 3's.
My earlier ESS AMT'3s crossovers were probably constructed more crudely then the later versions. Particle board with a small P.C, and huge stacks of the 12 resistor Zobel, glued and silicone. Go figure.
The basic thought process in the AMT1's and 3's was excellent IMHO.
Could it have been executed better?
No doubt.
But that's what forums like this one are for.
They have already done most of the foot work.
The mistakes and draw backs have become apparent and identified over the last 40 years or so.
So all you are left with is how to properly execute those changes.
Still can be a handful-but the basic philosophy of design9 the most difficult part) and basic foot work was done years ago.
But in this age of information at your finger tips, it's not really that difficult-just time consuming.
The ESS AMT speakers are IMHO a timeless classic design, who's flaws can be easily minimized , to a point where they can give any speaker, regardless of price and era a serious run for the money.
This, in a long drawn out nutshell, was my whole point in posting my thoughts, ideas and opinions on the AMT3's over the years.
They are well worth the effort......

 

[Squirrely]

Stan man,

Thanks for the tip on the DIY site. I put ESS AMT Elite in a google search and found a post on the DIY site describing the differences in the ribbons used and the construction of the Heil tweeter. Really good reading. Thanks again.

Porkloin,

It was great having you over. I had been listening to the ESS since I bought them and hooking up the again proved to me that both the ADS and the ESS are with me for life. I am glad I will be able to have one in the house and the other in the listening room. The ADS are so smooth and creamy they are very involving and relaxing. The ESS can convey that mood, but not like the ADS. On the other hand, the ESS speakers are great for full tilt Rock speakers. Both are very capable in all applications, but if I were having a party I would choose the ESS every time unless I was serving wine and cheese or tea.

I agree with the points you make regarding quality of construction. The ADS speakers are very well made but other than the speaker terminals I have no complaints of the AMT 1a’s. I have never taken out the crossovers of either speaker so I can’t comment on them. I think both speakers, the AMT 1a’s and the ADS 1230’s are eye candy. I may put myself at risk for saying, I am like a pig in ****! I couldn’t be happier with these two pairs of speakers. Please don’t roast me Porkloin.

The ESS are back in the rotation, but that will change when the Elites show up. I spoke to the guy today and the deal is on but it is never done until I have them plugged into my system at my house.

 

[Squirrely]

Oh, one other thing. The AMT 3’s look beautiful with the ADS 1230s. I say keep them both! Eye candy that sounds as good as it looks.

 

[Porkloin]

Keeping Both

I'm a fan of spartan living and two sets of towers in the living room goes against that grain. Not to mention that a complete restore on each pair will be in the neighborhood of $600 which means $1200 for both pair. I'm not wealthy enough to justify the expense. (Driver and crossover rebuilds from Richard So plus new veneer and grill cloth on the ADS/new drivers and crossover components on the ESS from Parts Express. The wood and grills on the ESS don't need work)
I've got some better ears than mine coming over to reaffirm/realign my initial thoughts on the sound of both speakers. The results will be posted here and the speakers not chosen will be put on Craigslist.

 

[KurtSL]

I had not heard of the Elite's before either, very interesting to search and read about them. I am curious to see what you think about them.

automojo: I have been very happy with the Eminence 1040sf woofers, with the stock stuffing and port. They likely lack some of the deep bass compared to your Dayton's, but I do have a subwoofer setup I can kick on when I am listening to material that needs more bass.

One thing I have been curious about, does any manufacturer out there make a larger Heil other than ESS? There seem to be a lot of companies starting to use the smaller versions in their speakers, but not larger ones.

 

[Porkloin]

Elites-Schmites

Hmm; ADS 1230 or ESS AMT 1a........
Keep posted I may have a line on a pair of ESS Elites!

If I am lucky in the next fiew days I could end up with the ESS Elites sittiing right on top of my ADS 1230's and shoot for the best of both!

I hope, I hope, I hope.

I know it was risky with two pair of 4 ohm speakers, but I put my faith in the old Denon integrated amp that I'm doing the A/B testing with and flipped the switch to A + B.
Talk about a wall of sound. The two speakers are well matched in their output levels and complimented one another in a way I didn't think possible - truly the best of both worlds.
The torment of knowing what could've been may very well be too much to bear and the idea of keeping both will be ricocheting in my skull for the next few days
Any recommendations on a pair of power amps with adjustable gain and a preamp level passthrough?

 

[automojo]

I had not heard of the Elite's before either, very interesting to search and read about them. I am curious to see what you think about them.

automojo: I have been very happy with the Eminence 1040sf woofers, with the stock stuffing and port. They likely lack some of the deep bass compared to your Dayton's, but I do have a subwoofer setup I can kick on when I am listening to material that needs more bass.

One thing I have been curious about, does any manufacturer out there make a larger Heil other than ESS? There seem to be a lot of companies starting to use the smaller versions in their speakers, but not larger ones.

The Eminence are nice woofers, and can go deeper then the Dayton's, if you could tune the cabinet that low.
They have nice punch.
The Great Heil is the largest I know of.

 

[automojo]

I know it was risky with two pair of 4 ohm speakers, but I put my faith in the old Denon integrated amp that I'm doing the A/B testing with and flipped the switch to A + B.
Talk about a wall of sound. The two speakers are well matched in their output levels and complimented one another in a way I didn't think possible - truly the best of both worlds.
The torment of knowing what could've been may very well be too much to bear and the idea of keeping both will be ricocheting in my skull for the next few days
Any recommendations on a pair of power amps with adjustable gain and a preamp level passthrough?

Interesting!
I say go for what works the best for your ears.
Both are great speakers, but if one pair must go I would not sweat it too much.
Your doing the best for your system and years, and budget.
Interesting on the static, I too have had that once in a while.
Old ears I guess, too much loud noises and music.

 

[automojo]

Finally finished damping the cabs with VB-1x.
Ended up using most of the gallon-I also applied it to the inside and outside of the midtube.
It sticks well, except to the silicone I used to seal the seams.
It kind of lifted here, so I used the Cascade Audio VB-1s Quite Kote to seal over these areas and keep it from flaking off.
Problem solved.
I also coated the rear area of the midtube with a thick coat of this.
Stuffs stinks, but dissipated after 24 hours.
It's not like undercoating, and dries without tack.
I'm thoroughly impressed with these two products, expensive but you get what you pay for. Well engineered.
The VB1s would also make a excellent product for dampening horn flares etc.
Probably works better then putty, plus it doesn't look terrible like a big hunk of putty on a horn.....

 

[automojo]

I'll probably be started a different thread here again eventually, but I have had a few questions on how to repair the grill boards.
Specifically they have a tendency to crack on the outside edges between the two woofer openings.
I will post a few pics, but the repair is really easy.
I used a dull (or you can use new) single edge utility knife blades I had waiting for disposal. The stainless steel type.
These are very stiff, and don't rust readily, and are longer, and stouter then single edge razor blades.
Use a bench grinder, etc to grind down the sharp edge side till it fits nicely width wise over the cracked area.
You will have to lift off the grill fabric in this area.
Then use epoxy to glue it down, and let it set up for 24 hours. Make sure you use epoxy, not Aleens Super Tacky etc. That is fine for the grill cloth-not this type of repair. You don't want to do it twice!
Glue the fabric back down with Aleens (or better yet Elmers Super Tacky) and your set!!

 

[Squirrely]

Porkloin,

The two speaker sets look really cool in the living room! I wonder if there would be a sonic benefit to have the ESS inside and the ADS to the outside because the ADS tweeters and mids would be spread apart more. Be sure to put a hand on that amp from time to time to make sure it is not too hot.

 

[Porkloin]

Porkloin,

The two speaker sets look really cool in the living room! I wonder if there would be a sonic benefit to have the ESS inside and the ADS to the outside because the ADS tweeters and mids would be spread apart more. Be sure to put a hand on that amp from time to time to make sure it is not too hot.

It's never too loud or for too long of a stint.
A pal of mine that owns two sets of 1530's, was ecstatic to hear that I had joined the ADS club. He suggested putting them out closer to the corners like the manual recommends. I doubt that will do anything for the overall soundstage, but it may place the individual vocalists/instruments a little more accurately and add some needed beef to the bass.
Not to mention that conventional wisdom goes against having the Rock Monitors in the corners like I have them.

 

[Squirrely]

Hi Porkloin,

I just sent a PM to you. There is a buyer in Portland for the ADS if you want to move them on. I let him know about this thread and I think he has been lerking around. Would you like me to share your phone # with him?

 

[Squirrely]

This is in no way a suggestion that you let go of the ADS. I think they are beutiful in your living room and you know of my enthusiasm for them.

 

[Squirrely]

I should add that I have money with my friend in the Sacramento area. He is going to purchase the ESS AMT Elites for me tomorrow or Sunday. I am getting realy excited at this point. My only concern is overheating my amp. The ADS are 6 ohm. I may end up bi-amping with my Eico hf-87 and a Dynaco ST-70.

 

[Squirrely]

If anyone knows what the impedance of the Elites is I would greatly appreciate the specs.

Thanks