misternova7
New Member
My question is does it matter the price of the actual turntable or is it better to spend more on the cartridge?
Does it really matter how much or little you spend on a Turntable?
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Andre Garcia
“WITHOUT MUSIC, LIFE WOULD BE A MISTAKE”
My point of view is:
Spend in a manual simple TT and put the big bucks on a good cartridge.
AG.
Spend in a manual simple TT and put the big bucks on a good cartridge.
AG.
misternova7
New Member
good point thank you
I believe that you can get excellent performance from the upper end of " mass market" turntables from the 70's and 80's, or from current tables in the $600-1200 range, combined with a cartridge in the $250-500 range. Each degree of improvement beyond this level will be exponentially more costly.
Personally, I am not a fan of the numerous vintage tables from the later 70s and the 80s that incorporate a lot of "bells and whistles" functionality....seems like much of it was done just because they had the new technology to do it. Unfortunately, 40-45 yeas later, it is very difficult to repair when/if it goes bad.
My preference is for manual or semi-auto tables from that era...less to go wrong. As for modern tables, just about all in the range I described are manual.
Personally, I am not a fan of the numerous vintage tables from the later 70s and the 80s that incorporate a lot of "bells and whistles" functionality....seems like much of it was done just because they had the new technology to do it. Unfortunately, 40-45 yeas later, it is very difficult to repair when/if it goes bad.
My preference is for manual or semi-auto tables from that era...less to go wrong. As for modern tables, just about all in the range I described are manual.
maxhifi
Addicted Member
A good turntable needs to rotate the record at exactly the right speed, without audible fluctuation (wow and flutter, speed accuracy).
It also needs to not generate any sound of its own, which adds noise to the sound (rumble)
It also should isolate the record playing from its environment, such to limit the effect of footfalls, and acoustic feedback (suspension, isolation, etc)
The arm must move with the cartridge in such a way that the cartridge stays perpendicular to the record groove (arm geometry)
The arm must have as little drag as possible, such that the cartridge can move freely, and there is no "side loading" of the stylus (quality of arm bearings)
The arm must also be designed to be free of audible resonance, since such resonance can transmit directly into the stylus and affect the sound. It can also affect tracking ability.
Additionally, the arm must be compatible with the chosen cartridge, so the fundamental resonance is below the audible range, but yet above the frequency range likely to cause skipping and subsonic issues.
Everything above affects performance, and optimizing all of those parameters costs money. Cheap turntables do all of the above worse than expensive ones, and even some expensive ones aren't that great.
The answer to your question is yes, if your goal is high performance, the quality of the turntable and arm is very important.
It also needs to not generate any sound of its own, which adds noise to the sound (rumble)
It also should isolate the record playing from its environment, such to limit the effect of footfalls, and acoustic feedback (suspension, isolation, etc)
The arm must move with the cartridge in such a way that the cartridge stays perpendicular to the record groove (arm geometry)
The arm must have as little drag as possible, such that the cartridge can move freely, and there is no "side loading" of the stylus (quality of arm bearings)
The arm must also be designed to be free of audible resonance, since such resonance can transmit directly into the stylus and affect the sound. It can also affect tracking ability.
Additionally, the arm must be compatible with the chosen cartridge, so the fundamental resonance is below the audible range, but yet above the frequency range likely to cause skipping and subsonic issues.
Everything above affects performance, and optimizing all of those parameters costs money. Cheap turntables do all of the above worse than expensive ones, and even some expensive ones aren't that great.
The answer to your question is yes, if your goal is high performance, the quality of the turntable and arm is very important.
SaSi
Seriously Illogical
I've tried putting an expensive and decent cartridge on a turntable that wasn't up to it and the results were poor.
I had my old family Dual 1009 and tried a Shure M95ED and later on a Stanton 681EEE on it. It tracked badly.
I later got a freebie plastic belt drive "electron" turntable and tried the Stanton on it. It sounded so bad I switched to CD.
Years later I got into analog again and got a Revox 791 with an Ortofon MC cart. Boy was that a Joy!
The turntable makes a lot of difference. You don't have to spend a fortune on the turntable though. If you get something that runs stable and has a decent plinth and tonearm, then it's worth it to spend money on a good cart. With prices going on used, vintage models, I'd dare say that for a budget of $200-300 for a turntable, it's worth to spend another $300 for a good cartridge and then you will be happy. Perhaps more happy with more on the cart.
I had my old family Dual 1009 and tried a Shure M95ED and later on a Stanton 681EEE on it. It tracked badly.
I later got a freebie plastic belt drive "electron" turntable and tried the Stanton on it. It sounded so bad I switched to CD.
Years later I got into analog again and got a Revox 791 with an Ortofon MC cart. Boy was that a Joy!
The turntable makes a lot of difference. You don't have to spend a fortune on the turntable though. If you get something that runs stable and has a decent plinth and tonearm, then it's worth it to spend money on a good cart. With prices going on used, vintage models, I'd dare say that for a budget of $200-300 for a turntable, it's worth to spend another $300 for a good cartridge and then you will be happy. Perhaps more happy with more on the cart.
50nstillhifi
Super Member
Both.. count for a lot towards play worthiness.. and durability.
shelly_d
Not An Audiophool
If you look at the performance specs for turntables you will see rumble specs varying between a low of -47 dB (poor) and a high of -78 dB (or better) (excellent). A good cartridge on a turntable with a -47dB rumble spec will pick up and transmit that rumble to the preamp for you to hear and enjoy(?) with the rest of the music. It doesn't matter how much the turntable costs in the market place, but it's performance certainly does count when you listen. There are some really fine used turntables that tend to fly beneath the radar that equal the performance of some expensive and well respected ones that go in the range of $400 to $500. The Pioneer PL7 springs to mind for one. (I own one so that is why I know it).
The only 2 specs that you will find on a turntable that can help you is the Rumble, sometimes called Signal to Noise (they are the same thing) and the Wow and Flutter. There are a lot of other things that should be measured but the industry never came up with standardized repeatable tests so they never did any specifications on them, so we have only those two. What do they mean and how to use them:
Rumble or Signal to Noise. This is how much mechanical noise the turntable's mechanism makes. -47 dB is poor and indicative of an entry level turntable. -78 dB is very good, the level reached by the best of the consumer grade turntables back in the day and the noise at that level is virtually inaudible.
Wow and Flutter: This is a measure of speed variations measured as a percentage. Smaller is better. My Thorens TD150 measures out at 0.09%wrms. The best of the direct drives got down to 0.02% or even better. The well respected Technics came in at 0.025%.
Use the database at this site for referance: https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable-database.php
Good luck:
Shelly_D
The only 2 specs that you will find on a turntable that can help you is the Rumble, sometimes called Signal to Noise (they are the same thing) and the Wow and Flutter. There are a lot of other things that should be measured but the industry never came up with standardized repeatable tests so they never did any specifications on them, so we have only those two. What do they mean and how to use them:
Rumble or Signal to Noise. This is how much mechanical noise the turntable's mechanism makes. -47 dB is poor and indicative of an entry level turntable. -78 dB is very good, the level reached by the best of the consumer grade turntables back in the day and the noise at that level is virtually inaudible.
Wow and Flutter: This is a measure of speed variations measured as a percentage. Smaller is better. My Thorens TD150 measures out at 0.09%wrms. The best of the direct drives got down to 0.02% or even better. The well respected Technics came in at 0.025%.
Use the database at this site for referance: https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable-database.php
Good luck:
Shelly_D
maxhifi
Addicted Member
To add to what I said above, I will go one step farther - I would way rather listen to a cheap cartridge like an AT95E on a fantastic turntable/arm, than an expensive MC cartridge on a cheap turntable.
There are some cheap cartridges which sound really great for the price, but I've never seen a cheap turntable which performs as well as expensive models - it's just expensive to make an excellent turntable, because fundamentally it is a mechanical device, and doesn't benefit much from the vast cost reduction we've seen in all things electronic over the past few decades.
There are some cheap cartridges which sound really great for the price, but I've never seen a cheap turntable which performs as well as expensive models - it's just expensive to make an excellent turntable, because fundamentally it is a mechanical device, and doesn't benefit much from the vast cost reduction we've seen in all things electronic over the past few decades.
Tiver
Enjoy the music
If you have a consumer level, but solid and well regarded turntable, the cartridge and phono preamp are probably the more discernible upgrades. But once the cartridge and preamp reach a certain ability to resolve (level), even the previously satisfying table and tonearm will start to get in the way.
ctjetta
It's not a perfect world
May I interest you in the following thread-
Cart the least important in vinyl replay chain, well according to Linn..
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...l-replay-chain-well-according-to-linn.855160/
Much thanks to @cafe latte
Cart the least important in vinyl replay chain, well according to Linn..
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...l-replay-chain-well-according-to-linn.855160/
Much thanks to @cafe latte
MRL_Audio
RIP 2022
I think that’s crap. Just my crappy opinion.
The entire signal chain is important. All of em. Some more important than others.
ctjetta
It's not a perfect world
I think that’s crap. Just my crappy opinion.
The entire signal chain is important. All of em. Some more important than others.
I appreciate your being humble and admitting that your opinion is crap. That being said, I only offer this thread as a previous discussion on this topic. One worthy of reviewing regardless of one's opinion on the topic.
However, your opinion has been duly noted.
Blue Shadow
Waiting for Vintage Gear from this century
Yes that bolding is needed to make folks believe it. Linn makes money on tts not so much on cartridges.
As you can see from all the responses the tt is part of the system but doesn't need to be the best part of the phono system. Balance is the right way to go but if you find an expensive cartridge and have only a pretty decent table you won't lose the sonic improvements by not having a great table, too. But an upgraded table will sound a bit better.
The linn stuff, I don't believe that for a second. A nice cartridge with correct phono stage the tonearm then the plattenspieler is where I would put the performance.
As you can see from all the responses the tt is part of the system but doesn't need to be the best part of the phono system. Balance is the right way to go but if you find an expensive cartridge and have only a pretty decent table you won't lose the sonic improvements by not having a great table, too. But an upgraded table will sound a bit better.
The linn stuff, I don't believe that for a second. A nice cartridge with correct phono stage the tonearm then the plattenspieler is where I would put the performance.
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MisterDK
Addicted Member
While I wouldn’t say the cartridge is least important, I think that a great cartridge can’t sound better than mediocre on a crap turntable.
On the other hand, a mediocre cartridge can sound pretty sweet on a great turntable, making one think the cartridge is better than it really is.
Of course, crap on crap just sounds..crappy.
Start with the best you can afford, but I’d spend most for the best turntable first -save up if you have to- then play with cartridges later on. Be aware though - once you get hooked on audio equipment, the rabbit hole goes on - and on.
I just recently got the bug to upgrade everything.. My car needs tires and I had to buy a belt ‘cause my pants are getting loose - but my system is sounding better all the time. ^_^
On the other hand, a mediocre cartridge can sound pretty sweet on a great turntable, making one think the cartridge is better than it really is.
Of course, crap on crap just sounds..crappy.
Start with the best you can afford, but I’d spend most for the best turntable first -save up if you have to- then play with cartridges later on. Be aware though - once you get hooked on audio equipment, the rabbit hole goes on - and on.
I just recently got the bug to upgrade everything.. My car needs tires and I had to buy a belt ‘cause my pants are getting loose - but my system is sounding better all the time. ^_^
BamaBilly
Motorcycles and Music
Not sure I’d use the same word but saying cables are more important than a cartridge sounds incredibly wrong to me.I think that’s crap. Just my crappy opinion.
The entire signal chain is important. All of em. Some more important than others.
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A high price and quality don't necessarily have to go together, but often you do get what you pay for.
Not sure your budget, but $300 will get you a pretty decent table on the used market.
Not sure your budget, but $300 will get you a pretty decent table on the used market.
MRL_Audio
RIP 2022
That’s all Linn or you or anyone else is offering here... opinions. I think balance is the way to go if you’re trying to derive value for the spend. Buy a crap table and tonearm and a great cartridge and you’ll never get everything from the cartridge. Same is true of the opposite equation. Balance grasshopper...
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