Does it really matter how much or little you spend on a Turntable?

[cafe latte]

I came to this conclusion based from hands on experiences. Everything maters as you really start getting up there with a system but this is what I found out in my growth.

While I never really had a very cheap table in resent years, I did have some common run of the mill ones. I would put tables like Marantz 6200, 6100, Pioneer, PL-514X, Technics SL-2000 all in the lower budget tables sub $225. When I wanted to move up from this level, tables like the SL-1200 Mk II, Kenwood KD500/Infinity Black widow fit the bill, a little higher up was the Thorens TD125,SME 3009 & Rabco SE8 & Michell Focus One/SME 3009 sub $800.

The problem with all these tables and my constant move in searching for better SQ and quality construction wasn't really all the tables. Some of the above tables are others dream table and end game. However I had a problem as I have found others do in spending a bunch of money on a cartridge. If I spent more than $200 I want to see a big change in my system rack. I also wasn't going to spend more than $200 for a cart going on all these sub $700 tables.

What I was doing wrong was moving all the cartridges I had from one table to the next new one I would buy. While I kept upgrading build quality, by keeping the cartridges the same, SQ basically stayed the same so I kept searching for better. It wasn't until I really stared to jump high on tables like my SOTA Star decks and getting $500-$1200 MC cartridges with them that sound quality improved for me. I remember the day I first got one setup and dropped the needle, "That's it, that's the SQ I was looking for!!"

Subsequently immediately and over the years I have put very good and expensive cartridges on tables costing far less than the cartridge. I have found I can get a sub $1000 table to sound almost as good as a $7000 table as long as the cartridge and staging is the same.

I have no probem putting $500-$1500 on a table like these, Thorens TD125,SME 3009 & Rabco SE8 & Michell Focus One/SME 3009, Kenwood KD500/Infinity Black widow, SL-1200 Mk II. And hold to the lower price on something like a Technics SL-2000,

I think a lot of what we think we hear is perception bias, when we spend big money on something we want it to be better than what we had before so before the needle drops even are brains are wired to hear it as better quality. Better carts do actually sound better than cheap ones, but cart differences are often styles of presentation more than a sliding scale of quality, not a surprise when we look at what a cart is, they are very simple things and there are only so many variations how to make them and a limit to the differences these changes will in real terms make. Linn understood this.

 

[]eep]

funny thing is, when playing my stereo, I only hear the speakers, and the rooms' acoustic signature to the speakers.

Again definitions... The determining phrase here is 'when playing my stereo'. When not your speakers don't make any sound (unless you drop them from the 2nd floor).

So what is 'playing my stereo'. Usually it's CiCo or MiMo (for you to decide if it's crap or music you want to hear). But it's never CiMo. Sure, with bad speakers you can get Mico but CiMo is simply impossible. Information lost can never be reconstructed (unless you use redundancy but then you still had it or lose resolution).

When Beethoven made his first symphony it was considered 'revolutionary' or 'humbug' for the ones who did not understand it or dislike change. When Ivor Tiefenbrun made his Linn LP12 from a Thorens TD150 he was right in stating that -at that time- the source was very underrated/-appreciated. And he was right. The competition for consumers was crap (exceptions notwithstanding).

And his statement that the TT is the most important part is NOT inspired by them not selling anything but. They later made great cartridges too. And the rest of the system.

In his time he was right. And over time he has made a huge mark on the audio industry. So much that others followed and the overall focus shifted so much that, while still true, it's not that evident anymore. And after the digital revolution the financial balance has totally shifted in what is expensive or cheap, what is a best buy and what is just a money pit.

 

[marcmorin]

When Ivor Tiefenbrun made his Linn LP12 from a Thorens TD150

A Linn Sondek is an AR XA with a butt load of money thrown at it...........some of it hit the right spots............

 

[cafe latte]

Again definitions... The determining phrase here is 'when playing my stereo'. When not your speakers don't make any sound (unless you drop them from the 2nd floor).

So what is 'playing my stereo'. Usually it's CiCo or MiMo (for you to decide if it's crap or music you want to hear). But it's never CiMo. Sure, with bad speakers you can get Mico but CiMo is simply impossible. Information lost can never be reconstructed (unless you use redundancy but then you still had it or lose resolution).

When Beethoven made his first symphony it was considered 'revolutionary' or 'humbug' for the ones who did not understand it or dislike change. When Ivor Tiefenbrun made his Linn LP12 from a Thorens TD150 he was right in stating that -at that time- the source was very underrated/-appreciated. And he was right. The competition for consumers was crap (exceptions notwithstanding).

And his statement that the TT is the most important part is NOT inspired by them not selling anything but. They later made great cartridges too. And the rest of the system.

In his time he was right. And over time he has made a huge mark on the audio industry. So much that others followed and the overall focus shifted so much that, while still true, it's not that evident anymore. And after the digital revolution the financial balance has totally shifted in what is expensive or cheap, what is a best buy and what is just a money pit.

When Linn made a range of carts they still recommended one to match your gear ie no pint in getting the best cart on the low end turntable. What Linn understood is a cart is a coil and a magnet which moves or the reverse, they are not rocket science. You can have lighter smaller magnets, or tiny moving coils but result is normally similar. A good mc or a good mm or mi with same tip and similar moving mass (modern mm and mi can be very low moving mass indeed) will soubd similar providing mm is capacitance loaded correctly. There is no magic with high end carts they are all transducers, I have so many carts, after a while if you are honest with yourself differences are much smaller than the money I have spent and price differences. Moving up the food chain though with turntables (I have 5 I use right now), differences with turntables are huge.
Chris

 

[62caddy]

I agree with Linn.

I'm sorry but cartridge that tracks poorly (therefore inducing distortion & noise) and having poor response characteristics isn't going to sound good on any turntable.

Fortunately your AT doesn't fall into that category but that doesn't change the fact. As we all know, performance and price are not always commensurate in hi fi.

If Linn is arguing that you don't need to spend a lot of money to get a good performing cartridge - that's a whole different discussion.

 

[Andre Garcia]

Better cart, sound better, interesting conclusion.
AG.

 

[cafe latte]

To put this simply with analogy, imagine a great microphone recording a so get in a toilet, and a less good microphone recording the same singer in a recording studio. Which will sound the best? In studio with less good mic for sure. Think of the studio as the turntable...

 

[62caddy]

Suffice to say, they're both important.

Pointless to debate the importance of one or the other since the best of either cannot outweigh the worst of either.

 

[ctjetta]

What part of my statement necessarily lead you to believe that I had not read through the thread nor that I had been unaware the treatise was Linn's? At any rate, rest assured that neither is the case.

Thank you.

I didn't assume you had not read the thread. My post was a conditional statement. Not meant to be accusatory or suggesting ignorance. Pointing out, as well, there are those who share your opinion. I do appreciate your participation, though.
I am not attempting to make this personal towards anyone, just presenting previously discussed material regardless of whether one agrees with the opening premise or not. More information should be welcome.

 

[jrtrent]

The question is so general and uninformative that it's really impossible to answer. It's just a flame bait waiting to drag out personal opinions and anecdotes. Asking for bedlam...

What TT do you have or do you want to buy one. Is it new or old. What did you have in mind. What is your definition of much, or quality. What do you consider expensive. Do you want to try it out or make long time commitment. Have you ever tried it before? Do you want to invest or just buy something disposable. What's the rest of your system. Etc, etc, etc.

I had assumed that the OP's thread was just a general question put out for discussion, not something related to a current shopping decision; however, a look at his profile page showed that on another thread, the OP said he had a Numark TT1510 turntable and was wondering what might be the best cartridge for it. He didn't want to spend more than $100 for a cartridge. Current cartridge is a JVC DT-59, which appears to be similar to the AT91. In that other thread, either LPGear's elliptical upgrade stylus or an AT-VM95E were suggested. His speakers are JBL LX44.

 

[4-2-7]

I think a lot of what we think we hear is perception bias, when we spend big money on something we want it to be better than what we had before so before the needle drops even are brains are wired to hear it as better quality. Better carts do actually sound better than cheap ones, but cart differences are often styles of presentation more than a sliding scale of quality, not a surprise when we look at what a cart is, they are very simple things and there are only so many variations how to make them and a limit to the differences these changes will in real terms make.

Actually no, can't agree.

Linn understood this.

Linn doesn't know ****...well I'll take that back their pretty good at propaganda and making flat earthers

 

[cafe latte]

I'm sorry but cartridge that tracks poorly (therefore inducing distortion & noise) and having poor response characteristics isn't going to sound good on any turntable.

Fortunately your AT doesn't fall into that category but that doesn't change the fact. As we all know, performance and price are not always commensurate in hi fi.

If Linn is arguing that you don't need to spend a lot of money to get a good performing cartridge - that's a whole different discussion.

Yes and point being a good tracking cheaper cart on a great turntable and arm will sound better than a top shelf cart on a cheap turntable. A transducer, like the mic needs everything else right to work even close to optimal.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

Actually no, can't agree.

Linn doesn't know ****...well I'll take that back there pretty good at propaganda and making flat earthers

For knowing so little they sure made some good turntables and carts..

 

[4-2-7]

For knowing so little they sure made some good turntables and carts..

Part of the propaganda, they didn't even come up with the design. They put lip stick on a cheap table and then charged a lot for it. When Linn went up against other tables that where in the price category they go spanked all the time. Now I don't know why your pushing Linn tables in this thread but it's off topic and no need to keep quoting me talking about Linn. Start a thread on Linn if you want to talk about them.

 

[maxhifi]

For knowing so little they sure made some good turntables and carts..

And amps, speakers, CD players. Never met a Linn I didnt like.

 

[ctjetta]

Part of the propaganda, they didn't even come up with the design. They put lip stick on a cheap table and then charged a lot for it. When Linn went up against other tables that where in the price category they go spanked all the time. Now I don't know why your pushing Linn tables in this thread but it's off topic and no need to keep quoting me talking about Linn. Start a thread on Linn if you want to talk about them.

I don't understand why you're being so harsh regarding Linn. I'm fairly certain they have nothing but the nicest of things to say about you!

 

[4-2-7]

I don't understand why you're being so harsh regarding Linn. I'm fairly certain they have nothing but the nicest of things to say about you!

Not really, they push lies out about other manufacturers as part of their propaganda message. BTW I used to have a LP12 long ago, hardly worth the mention as it was very short lived. But I still don't get their following and fanatic behavior from most the fan club.

But anyway this thread is being taken off topic and isn't even close to what the OP asked.

 

[62caddy]

Yes and point being a good tracking cheaper cart on a great turntable and arm will sound better than a top shelf cart on a cheap turntable.

I don't know how the argument can be made either way.

 

[4-2-7]

I don't know how the argument can be made either way.

Ideology makes him errr....Linn right

 

[62caddy]

Ideology makes him errr....Linn right

Can't comment on that but arguing the importance of one over the other seems like a futile exercise to me. As I said, the worst of either cannot overcome the best of either.