I'll avoid the politics of that web site. Your measurement on post #64 of that thread sure looks better developed than what you posted on #12, which I believe is what srbliss is using on his Franken Vals.
Or should I just drop this?
Franken VAL's
- Thread starter srbliss
- Start date
I'll avoid the politics of that web site. Your measurement on post #64 of that thread sure looks better developed than what you posted on #12, which I believe is what srbliss is using on his Franken Vals.
Or should I just drop this?
Steve's Franken-Vals measure essentially the same as Duff's did years ago. They sounded quite good.
The installed 2452H-SL had a connection problem on one of the terminals. We investigated that, and it appears to be repairable. The diaphragm itself measures correctly.
Running them on Z19, we easily achieved flatter response. The compromise is that Z19 crosses 200 Hz higher, and stretches the 2235H woofer's capabilities a bit.
In any case, with further cabinet treatments to quell the rattles, this first one is now good to go for listening comparisons, and I expect there'll be plenty of that yet to come at Bliss House.
Note that the stock Val grill was in place for these measurements.
Special thanks to AK's Wiredbecker for assisting in today's session, and sussing out the connector failure, particularly.... :thmbsp:
The installed 2452H-SL had a connection problem on one of the terminals. We investigated that, and it appears to be repairable. The diaphragm itself measures correctly.
Running them on Z19, we easily achieved flatter response. The compromise is that Z19 crosses 200 Hz higher, and stretches the 2235H woofer's capabilities a bit.
In any case, with further cabinet treatments to quell the rattles, this first one is now good to go for listening comparisons, and I expect there'll be plenty of that yet to come at Bliss House.
Note that the stock Val grill was in place for these measurements.
Special thanks to AK's Wiredbecker for assisting in today's session, and sussing out the connector failure, particularly.... :thmbsp:
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srbliss
Active Member
Don't drop it
I want to pursue it myself. I didn't really get to hear the z-19 at ZilchLabs today in my speakers. The plot certainly looks better, but does it really sound any better?
I want to pursue it myself. I didn't really get to hear the z-19 at ZilchLabs today in my speakers. The plot certainly looks better, but does it really sound any better?
We heard music on it briefly, in passing, with LE14A woofer. Only you can make that determination via A/B comparison in quality listening. You're ~$80 away from the answer, now that we know you are supremely competent at crossover-building....
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=328530
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srbliss
Active Member
Picture of the final working crossover
Here is the new build installed on the rear panel. Sounds pretty good quietly listening while my 4 year old is sleeping. After I drop him off at school in the morning I will give a real listen before I go to work. The Val grill really kills the off axis response. I really doubt it will survive the week - I know from experience that it will fall into a 100 parts when removed (it already has the tell-tale hairline cracks.) The whole thing needs to be raised about a foot (the grill is not helping with this problem) it sounds MUCH better if I sit on the floor directly in front. Surprisingly this gentle giant is extremely easy to drive, my little 30 or 40 watt integrated amp is just idling away.
Steve
Here is the new build installed on the rear panel. Sounds pretty good quietly listening while my 4 year old is sleeping. After I drop him off at school in the morning I will give a real listen before I go to work. The Val grill really kills the off axis response. I really doubt it will survive the week - I know from experience that it will fall into a 100 parts when removed (it already has the tell-tale hairline cracks.) The whole thing needs to be raised about a foot (the grill is not helping with this problem) it sounds MUCH better if I sit on the floor directly in front. Surprisingly this gentle giant is extremely easy to drive, my little 30 or 40 watt integrated amp is just idling away.
Steve
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Either is fine; the one you heard today has 6.2, and it worked with both LE14A and 2235H. That cap merely establishes the overall attenuation, the mid balance. With low-efficiency woofers, that could drop as low as 4 uF.
What's available in Solen vs. Dayton varies enough that different combos of caps are required to get the design values. My Z19 thread shows the Solen build we used, and what choices got it there. My original goal was to build it on a 6" square board, and as you see in the pic, there's extra room, if required. 20 Ga is probably fine for the 0.8 mH inductor for even more room, as well, but I haven't tried that.
[They WILL crank and rock out, however....
]
What's available in Solen vs. Dayton varies enough that different combos of caps are required to get the design values. My Z19 thread shows the Solen build we used, and what choices got it there. My original goal was to build it on a 6" square board, and as you see in the pic, there's extra room, if required. 20 Ga is probably fine for the 0.8 mH inductor for even more room, as well, but I haven't tried that.
Despite its extended bass performance in suitable alignments, 2235H is NOT a low-efficiency woofer. Others have found the same with 4430s -- it doesn't require gobs of power to drive them.
[They WILL crank and rock out, however....
]
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Z19's highpass would have to be shifted down to 1 kHz in a manner that blended with the 4430 lowpass. Both use very nearly the same core inductor in the lowpass, and Z19 could be easily converted for that part. Not terribly difficult, but the combo would have to be verifed via measurements; I don't believe we have any data on 2452H-SL/PT-F95HF directivity down in that region. It'll PLAY down there, sure, but the rest of it, well, "indeterminate...."
This is something that could be very useful, if it worked. It would open up a number of other woofers to use in "Econowave-like" endeavors. Especially with the larger waveguides (QSC, 1.5" PT, etc). Having to only play to 1KHz makes it easier on a number of woofers...
Regards,
Gordon.
Looking back at the chronology, I find I designed Z19 in 1/2008 for Skywave's Altec 9844-8B project on LHF, and it was a month later (2/18/08) before he had built the first one ever for testing:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulle...-Altec-9844-8B&p=201193&viewfull=1#post201193
By then, EconoWave was happening here on AK, Duff's JBL project was underway, and we already had a workable crossover solution in my simplified design of 4430's N3134, which both Duff and Steve heard.
With the virtually universal acclaim for Duff's achieved result in listening sessions by others, and his own satisfaction with the performance, we decided not to pursue alternatives. By one view, the measurements evidence a couple dB of built-in "smiley-face" EQ in the range of the well-known "BBC dip," both viable and well-regarding loudspeaker voicing options.
Yes, we can likely get them Studio Monitor flat using Z19, or a variant of it, but in my view, that's a "listener's choice" option, best evaluated with controlled A/B testing, and Steve now intends to pursue this alternative toward a definitive determination of his own personal preference.... :thmbsp:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulle...-Altec-9844-8B&p=201193&viewfull=1#post201193
By then, EconoWave was happening here on AK, Duff's JBL project was underway, and we already had a workable crossover solution in my simplified design of 4430's N3134, which both Duff and Steve heard.
With the virtually universal acclaim for Duff's achieved result in listening sessions by others, and his own satisfaction with the performance, we decided not to pursue alternatives. By one view, the measurements evidence a couple dB of built-in "smiley-face" EQ in the range of the well-known "BBC dip," both viable and well-regarding loudspeaker voicing options.
Yes, we can likely get them Studio Monitor flat using Z19, or a variant of it, but in my view, that's a "listener's choice" option, best evaluated with controlled A/B testing, and Steve now intends to pursue this alternative toward a definitive determination of his own personal preference.... :thmbsp:
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The speaker sounded excellent with both crossover variants and I would be happy to have it in my home. Not to mention, Steve's crossover construction was top notch--better than anything I've ever cobbled together on my own. Well done bud!
srbliss
Active Member
Thanks
The crossover came out pretty good considering it's the second one I have ever made. Before I came into work I got to play some tunes (Radio K.A.O.S.) at a more respectable level while doing some work on my laptop. I kept looking up after hearing stuff I never noticed before. Just before I left I played the mandatory stupid speaker test - 1812 overture. Kettle drums were in my office! Now I need to find CDs with some significant bass content to try out. I have LP's that rock with bass but my cheap turntable does not seem like those 2235's and goes nuts with feedback if I turn it up at all.
I will have the wood I need after this weekend and work will start on beefing up the second cabinet, and the bases.
The crossover came out pretty good considering it's the second one I have ever made. Before I came into work I got to play some tunes (Radio K.A.O.S.) at a more respectable level while doing some work on my laptop. I kept looking up after hearing stuff I never noticed before. Just before I left I played the mandatory stupid speaker test - 1812 overture. Kettle drums were in my office! Now I need to find CDs with some significant bass content to try out. I have LP's that rock with bass but my cheap turntable does not seem like those 2235's and goes nuts with feedback if I turn it up at all.
I will have the wood I need after this weekend and work will start on beefing up the second cabinet, and the bases.
srbliss
Active Member
2452H-SL guts
Thought I would share what these look like on the inside. As stated above one of the terminals was partially stripped out (I think it was dropped on the bad terminal) and needed some TLC to get it working again. I shortened the rubber gasket/spacer and the brass insert about an 1/8" and now it seems OK - not great but all it needs to do is hold a wire and transfer some juice. Working on these $$$things is a bit nervewracking - Zilch just does it, I took it very slow and easy. The screws are all stainless and it would be nice to have a non-magnetic screwdriver to do this type of work. Enjoy the pics. :thmbsp:
Steve
I did the work on my other Val cabinet because my workbenches are all steel (for welding) I might have trouble getting one of these drivers pried free from a 1/4" thick steel plate.
Thought I would share what these look like on the inside. As stated above one of the terminals was partially stripped out (I think it was dropped on the bad terminal) and needed some TLC to get it working again. I shortened the rubber gasket/spacer and the brass insert about an 1/8" and now it seems OK - not great but all it needs to do is hold a wire and transfer some juice. Working on these $$$things is a bit nervewracking - Zilch just does it, I took it very slow and easy. The screws are all stainless and it would be nice to have a non-magnetic screwdriver to do this type of work. Enjoy the pics. :thmbsp:
Steve
I did the work on my other Val cabinet because my workbenches are all steel (for welding) I might have trouble getting one of these drivers pried free from a 1/4" thick steel plate.
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BHamm
The pendulum swings.
Steve's Franken-Vals measure essentially the same as Duff's did years ago. They sounded quite good.
The installed 2452H-SL had a connection problem on one of the terminals. We investigated that, and it appears to be repairable. The diaphragm itself measures correctly.
Running them on Z19, we easily achieved flatter response. The compromise is that Z19 crosses 200 Hz higher, and stretches the 2235H woofer's capabilities a bit.
In any case, with further cabinet treatments to quell the rattles, this first one is now good to go for listening comparisons, and I expect there'll be plenty of that yet to come at Bliss House.
Note that the stock Val grill was in place for these measurements.
Special thanks to AK's Wiredbecker for assisting in today's session, and sussing out the connector failure, particularly.... :thmbsp:
Looks like the JBL LE14H-3 may be a better candidate than the 2235H with Z19 crossover?
BHamm
The pendulum swings.
That's great dude! Glad you were able to shorten that enough to get that compression driver up and running again. Are you listening in stereo yet?
srbliss
Active Member
Not even close to stereo
I hope I really did fix it - it is still just starting to strip out the remaining threads. I will be installing some brass thread inserts to actually fix it. I need to rebuild the other cabinet. It is currently a four sided box sitting out in the garage.
I hope I really did fix it - it is still just starting to strip out the remaining threads. I will be installing some brass thread inserts to actually fix it. I need to rebuild the other cabinet. It is currently a four sided box sitting out in the garage.
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srbliss
Active Member
New demo song found
While checking work email before I head into work I plopped Collective Soul hit play and while I was in the kitchen 'Simple' was starting (the real quiet part just voice and maybe brushes on a cymbal) when the kick drums and bass came in the hair on the back of my neck stood up
. I finally found the real bass I was looking for. This is with ONE speaker in mono btw.
While checking work email before I head into work I plopped Collective Soul hit play and while I was in the kitchen 'Simple' was starting (the real quiet part just voice and maybe brushes on a cymbal) when the kick drums and bass came in the hair on the back of my neck stood up
. I finally found the real bass I was looking for. This is with ONE speaker in mono btw.