Just got a vpi hw 16.5, owner tips?
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markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
Hi, New, or used? Firstly, do read the manual thoroughly if you have one.
Do not close the Lexan Lid if the Wand is swung out of the way to the rear of the machine, it is easy to crack-break the clear vacuum tube this way. I never close the Lid when cleaning, only when I'm done with the machine, and am putting it away.
Always have the drain hose clamp closed tightly on the drain hose when in use. This is very important.
Dependent upon how many step cleaning process you are using, it is important you don't neglect periodic draining while doing a cleaning run. More efficient draining of the Tank can be accomplished by slightly tipping the machine rearward 5-10 degrees while draining the tank, and always drain the tank fully after use. It is a good Idea to leave the Wand off the machine for 24 hours after a cleaning run, so the tank fully dries.
Never tilt the machine any other way when there are fluids in the resovoir, as they can be introduced into the vacuum motor, thus damaging the motor. This is usually the #1 cause of failure with these machines.
Draining more often than necessary is always better than not. Drain maybe every 10 records until you fully get the feel of this machine.
There's more less important tips, but regardless if new, or used, it is usually a good idea to give the machine an entire shakedown inspection, both in, and out. The most important thing to establish, that things like the drain hose screw clamp where the drain hose attaches to the bottom of the Stainless Steel Resovoir Tank is tight-snug, and that no fluids are leaking into the bottom of the machine.
By removing the bottom cover, this will not void the warrantee, provided you don't make any errors. The inside is basically simple, you'll see the two motors, wiring, the two switches, the tank, some blanket insulation. Not much to them actually.
When you're ready to know-ask more, us boys will be here to help
Mark
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RichardO
Member
I picked up a used 16.5 a few weeks ago and so far my advice is this: enjoy it!
Mine's an old one, a 16 converted into a 16.5, so I think there are some technical differences between our 16.5s, but here's what I've found so far....
I find that one cleaning is not usually enough, especially with old and filthy records. They might *look* clean after one cleaning, but they typically don't *sound* clean without at least a second scrub.
(With a dirty record, I might use enough liquid to get it wet and scrub it a little, then vacuum it off. Then I'll do the other side. The record looks clean at this point, but it's not. So I flip the record back over, use plenty of cleaner, scrub it, and let it sit for a couple of minutes, come back, scrub again, and vacuum it off. Flip and repeat. This seems to make a huge difference in sound quality.)
I know others around here use different formulas (including a water rinse) for multiple washes. I just use my homebrew cleaner for both (or all three) stages, and have had excellent results. Others go so far as to use separate brushes and vacuum tubes for each stage.
Don't expect your machine to work miracles. It can't repair scratches, and it can't heal worn-out records. But it will reduce the surface noise on well-cared for records, and it can make even a scraped-up record more enjoyable to listen to.
Finally, if you haven't yet, invest in some plastic sleeves for your clean records. The MoFi inner sleeves are popular around here, but the idea is to keep the decades' worth of filth in the original sleeves away from your newly-cleaned records. That way, you can just brush off the record with your carbon-fiber brush between cleanings.
Oh, and if yours is as loud as mine, you might want some earplugs, if not for yourself, for others in your home who easily tire of your vacuuming but nevertheless hound you about vacuuming the carpet.....
Mine's an old one, a 16 converted into a 16.5, so I think there are some technical differences between our 16.5s, but here's what I've found so far....
I find that one cleaning is not usually enough, especially with old and filthy records. They might *look* clean after one cleaning, but they typically don't *sound* clean without at least a second scrub.
(With a dirty record, I might use enough liquid to get it wet and scrub it a little, then vacuum it off. Then I'll do the other side. The record looks clean at this point, but it's not. So I flip the record back over, use plenty of cleaner, scrub it, and let it sit for a couple of minutes, come back, scrub again, and vacuum it off. Flip and repeat. This seems to make a huge difference in sound quality.)
I know others around here use different formulas (including a water rinse) for multiple washes. I just use my homebrew cleaner for both (or all three) stages, and have had excellent results. Others go so far as to use separate brushes and vacuum tubes for each stage.
Don't expect your machine to work miracles. It can't repair scratches, and it can't heal worn-out records. But it will reduce the surface noise on well-cared for records, and it can make even a scraped-up record more enjoyable to listen to.
Finally, if you haven't yet, invest in some plastic sleeves for your clean records. The MoFi inner sleeves are popular around here, but the idea is to keep the decades' worth of filth in the original sleeves away from your newly-cleaned records. That way, you can just brush off the record with your carbon-fiber brush between cleanings.
Oh, and if yours is as loud as mine, you might want some earplugs, if not for yourself, for others in your home who easily tire of your vacuuming but nevertheless hound you about vacuuming the carpet.....
I second the lexan tube idea. Remove it when you are done cleaning, before closing the lid. Also, I got tired of draining the tank so I set it up to drain into a gallon jug that I store down below the cleaner. Having said that, just know there is still cleaner in the inside tank and you have to tip it back to drain it completely if you're going to move the unit.
The 16.5 is some of the best money i've spent to improve my vinyl experience.
The 16.5 is some of the best money i've spent to improve my vinyl experience.
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
Hello Chimpkin, we might've covered this before, so please forgive me if I have forgotten any details.
Are you saying that you leave the drain hose open, just placing it into a gallon jug?
As I understand, per Mike at VPI's instructions-warnings about this, by leaving the drain hose unclamped, this compromises the design of the vacuum system itself, and without the system being otherwise sealed (except for the vacuum wand) this is one good way to introduce fluids into the vacuum motor, and they are not waterproof.
I would suspect a loss of vacuum efficiency as well, once the system with holding revovoir tank is compromised.
The Tank on VPI machines is baffled to help prevent such, but if you don;t correctly adhere to the design system of the machine, it will be only a matter of time, that the vacuum motor will fail, and they are not cheap. Mark
Thanks for those tips Mark, I never would have thought of pulling the wand for drying.
Oh and I got a new one. I used it for about a dozen records today. Things are working great. Only two comments so far.
1. I am using fluid fast! I was supposed to get the one gallon concentrate mix with the unit as the description said so. But there was only a 8oz premix in the box which the seller said was the concentrate. I contacted VPI and they confirmed that is premixed, not concentrate. So I am thru half the bottle allready.
I can order the mix but it will take a bit to get here. Is there an alternative thing I can pick up at the store locally and mix with distilled water?
2. I think there is cross contaminating from the clean side when I flip it to do the other side. I am pre brushing before using the 16.5 and putting it in a clean inner sleeve afterwards but I'd hate to think I am blowing it by flipping the disc with the dirty side contact.
Maybe I should pick up a pair of mats to alternate or am I being anal?
Hi Richardo - Wow multi stages! I really need to get some more fluid.
I went with the Diskeeper Double Audiophile Inner Sleeves from sleevetown. I'm new but decided on those because someone comparing them to the MoFi's said they were stiffer which I like. I am using those placing it in the back of the cover (not inside) using a 5 mil or 2.5 mil outer sleeve with the inner opening to the top and outer opening to the left on the binding side for ease of reading.
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
Hello MBob, I'm going to try addressing all your questions, and give my opinions FWIW.
Firstly, no, you are not being anal, and this is a real issue with the VPI 16.5, with its Cork Mat. I'm of course not the only one who's recognized this shortcoming, it was probably a more inexpensive way for VPI to produce such a machine, and try to keep it affordable for the masses.
Some buy another spare Cork Mat, some use Shelf Liner, or other items, to place the clean side onto. The Cork Mat is hard to clean, one cannot easily see dirt-dust on it, and the dirtier the records, the faster it will get dirty.
I've totally eliminated my Cork Mat altogether, and have installed a Neoprene Rubber Mat, permanently Glued (contact cement) to a custom Acrylic Platter, cloned from the original Platter's dimensions. This Mat material, Shore A hardness of 60, can be gotten from places like McMaster-Carr Supply.I recommend a Shore A Hardness of between 40-60 as being ideal for a Mat.
Mc-Master-Carr does sell the Neoprene Sheet with Adhesive Backing, but I bought this, and found it didn't actually stick too well. 1/16: thickness should work fine, I used an empty .38 caliber cartridge case as a punch, sanding the edge with a bit of sandpaper to sharpen the case edge, then used that to punch the holes for the spindle, and the three holes for the three screws that hold the Platter on. You'll want those holes in case you ever need to gain access to the Platter Motor, in which the Platter must come off.
My wisest recommendation as to what to do about cleaning fluids, is wait.
I wouldn't use lesser products, then find the job hasn;t been done as good, then feel a need to have to go back, and re-clean all those 1/2 clean records. That's really a waste of time, and money. Do it right the first time.
As for Alcohol. and adding it to a manufactured cleaner, it might help? In truth, that is probably correct, that the Alcohol will act as a surfactant, making the water more "wet", Many people wrongly assume that 98% Alcohol is 98% alcohol, and 2% water, when that actually is not the case. That 2% also consists of other things, such as impurities. 98% Alcohol from Walgreens is not Laboratory Grade, and usually the best cleaners on the market do use better than this, "If" they contain alcohol. Many stray from Alcohol on theie records, but the proper types, in the proper concentrations, left for a short period on the record isn't detrimental.
Experience will then teach you in time, pretty much exactly how much fluids you need to use when cleaning. I use enough to insure the record groove is covered, I apply, spread with a MoFi Brush Pad, let sit a few minutes, insure those fluids don;t dry on the record, then begin a very gentle scrub, scrubbing in both directions following the groove, do a small section of the record at a time, rotate the platter slightly, then continue on, till the entire record has been scrubbed. Then vacuum off.
The wait would not be long, depending who you buy the fluids from. Who I get mine from, could probably have you your fluids in 2-4 days average. That's not too long to wait. Mark
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
About your methods for sleeving records, I'd like commenting here as well.
As I understand it, the Disckeeper Sleeves are a very good product. No problem there I see. As they say, "Carry on Montague"!
I use the Mofi Inners, my entire collection is in these liners (a good 850+ records from my last count). Yes, they are sort of flimsy-flexible, and take a bit of patience to slip in, and out of a jacket. But I do it all the time, with no problems. And I use the "real" Japanese Outer resealable Outer Sleeves, bought from Elusive Disc.
And again, some people don't like these either, but I have no probs with them. They hold up very well, and I've been using those outer sleeves for a good 12-13 years now. I won't buy nothing but.
I do install every one of my records "inside" the jackets, as I feel they are better protected from dust, and from any possible abrasion. Mark
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
MBob, Yes, I too, use a multiple stage cleaning process, and the cleaners, and rinses I use are made by Audio Intelligent Vinyl Solutions (AIVS).
I use a 4 step process generally, starting with AIVS #15 Pre-Cleaner, which contains 2 broad band Enzymes. These newfangled enzyme based cleaning formulas are the very best for acting upon Molds, Fungus', and other biological contaminants that can be found on vinyl. and they are the safest to use. These Enzyme cleaners are also the most effective for getting off lesser cleaning products that perhaps another user has used in the past, other unknown residues, and as well are most effective for removing what is known as a Mold Release Formula, which is on many records.
No, it is NOT something that is sprayed on the vinyl, or on the record stamper, it is a chemical that is already in the PVC Vinyl formulation. These chemicals, which I believe are called Stearates, permit the vinyl to more easily fall away from the stamper when pressed.
Many cleaning products, whether DIY, or commercial are often quite ineffective with dealing with the nasties I earlier mention.
I then go onto AIVS Enzymatic, which is another enzyme formula they make, then onto their Super Cleaner, which does contain a small amount of Isopropanol Alcohol, then onto the AIVS Pure Water Rinse.
One can get away with just a 3-step AVIS process with perfect results on less dirty records, I like the #15 formula though now as a first step on all my records.
IMO, AIVS products have no peer. I do believe without a doubt, that they are the finest cleaning products made today. If they weren't no longer made at some point in the future, my next best choice would be the Walker Prelude cleaning system.
My feelings are use the best, and forget the rest. Or, do it right the first time. It is actually more economically wise, using top products, achieving the best results, and not having to go back anytime soon due to a lesser cleaning product(s). I felt I was lucky, that I was steered towards these products about 2-1/2 years ago. The people who recommended them to me, I feel saved me a lot of money, from running the gamut with lesser products. Mark
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I did a home brew today and it is working great.
1. 104 oz Distilled water
2. 24 oz Isop alcohol
3. 5 eye drops of kodak photo-flow
4. 3 eye drops dawn
I am using this on the grimy LPs I bought from Amazon, Ebay, and the local record store. I am also using a designated brush for just this mix. I have had very good results with it thus far.
Now for my 120 near mint records I will use only the VPI mix minus the alcohol and VPI brush that I designated for that.
1. 104 oz Distilled water
2. 24 oz Isop alcohol
3. 5 eye drops of kodak photo-flow
4. 3 eye drops dawn
I am using this on the grimy LPs I bought from Amazon, Ebay, and the local record store. I am also using a designated brush for just this mix. I have had very good results with it thus far.
Now for my 120 near mint records I will use only the VPI mix minus the alcohol and VPI brush that I designated for that.
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@ markd51. I do still tip the machine after every few records to drain the tank. And yes I leave the plug off the end of the drain hose. I didn't know it was part of the vacuum design to have it clamped. Now i'm concerned.
You'll have to correct me if i'm wrong, but are you saying that air can suck up through the open drain tube and potentially bring some of the fluids into the vacuum motor?
Why the hell would they design it that way? I don't get that at all. I will plug the tube from now on but I thought I had worked out a way to make cleaning records easier by just draining into a jug.
Couldn't they have easily integrated some sort of baffle when the vacuum is on? This isn't really a problem with regular wet vacs. Man, thanks for the tip. I just hope I haven't already ruined this thing.
You'll have to correct me if i'm wrong, but are you saying that air can suck up through the open drain tube and potentially bring some of the fluids into the vacuum motor?
Why the hell would they design it that way? I don't get that at all. I will plug the tube from now on but I thought I had worked out a way to make cleaning records easier by just draining into a jug.
Couldn't they have easily integrated some sort of baffle when the vacuum is on? This isn't really a problem with regular wet vacs. Man, thanks for the tip. I just hope I haven't already ruined this thing.
basicly this machine could have been made alot better, but then the costs would be even higher. In the grand scheme of things these do not move in great numbers. I know many a person with a large record collection that could greatly benifeit from owning one of these machines, yet they do not. I own a VPI 16.5 and I love it. But I think the Loricraft machine is a better unit by far, unfortunatly its $4000. So that aint happenin'. 
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
Hi,
I'm not sure which way air then could possibly suck? I myself am not going to experiment in this regard to find out. Although one could try it with a completely bone dry recovery tank, see if there's any difference in vacuum suction plugged-unplugged.
All I know, is Mike at VPI personally advised me to always plug, or clamp that hose in some manner. He said he's heard of some using a pen-pencil, or a tiny cork. I looked for such as small cork at Home-Depot-Lowes, and could not find one that small.
he went on further to say, that this is one problem they recieve, a customer's machine back for such damage, and he stated that this sort of damage would void a factory warrantee.
As for any wet-dry vac system, I honestly cannot recall ever seeing one that was not totally sealed.
Take a look at something like a Carpet Steaming Machine, even the smaller non-commercial units go to the extent of even gasketing the lids on the recovery tanks, with Rubber-O-Ring Gaskets. Smaller machines, such as a Hoover-Bissle basically use a very similar motor like is found in the VPI RCMs.
That's basically why the thing sounds like a Steamer, or Vacuum.
As well, all will usually have some form of baffling system, and the VPI Machines do as well. I can just barely see the baffling in my 16.5's recovery tank, if I shine a flashlight, and look down into the hole where the Vacuum Wand Tower is.
I would assume if your motor hasn;t failed yet, it won't anytime soon, provided tou do clamp the drain hose. As I understand it, the recovery tank on the 16.5 holds one qt of fluid. Although I think one should drain the tank well before you get to that accumilation.
I've seen how these Ametek-Lamb Motors will fail after awhile, since the innards on them are not stainless steel. The metal Impeller, and retaining nut begin to corrode from the moisture with repeated aresols hitting that motor. Large amounts of fluids due to overfilled tank, or tipping the machine the wrong way whole the tank has fluid in it will no doubt kill the motor virtually instantly. Mark
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flavio81
Turntable technician
I bought a secondhand VPI HW 16.5 a few days ago and found this thread very useful, so after using the machine and also disassembling it and experienced some problems, I would like to contribute and add:
If you don't close the drain hose clamp, the suction force is not maximum, so this is one of the reasons for closing it.
The manual actually instructs us on periodically tiping the machine rearward so the fluids go to the drain hose. In my experience, if you don't tip the machine, you are not draining the tank soon enough.
Fun fact: Even if the hose is closed and the fluids are visible there on the hose, if you turn up the vacuum the liquid will not go again inside the machine.
Now, what happens if you don't drain the machine? Eventually the level of water inside rises up to the point that the water is suctioned into the vacuum impeller, and this is not good for the machine. It will corrode parts of the vacuum impeller.
However, the water can't enter the vacuum _motor_ itself, it can only enter the vacuum _fan_ and for this you would have to tilt it at an extreme angle.
When i bought it, i had the problem that water was dripping down the bottom of the machine. I thought the culprit was that: a loose drain hose.
However the reason was that I was not draining the machine often enough. I thought it just needed draining once a day... wrong! You need to make sure no more than, say, 25mL or 50mL of liquid are inside the machine at any point in time.
The tank is big, however, it is big to prevent the vacuum impeler from suctioning liquid into it. You want the liquid to remain in the tank without going inside the impeller. Thus, even if the tank is rather big, I find it only takes a few milliiliters (150? can't recall -- but i did the experiment) to make the system fail, with water being suctioned into the impeller and making the impeler spit water through the bottom of the unit (i have seen this with my very own eyes).
I now drain the tank every 4 cleanings.
TL,DR; don't forget to drain the tank every 4-8 cleanings.
If you don't close the drain hose clamp, the suction force is not maximum, so this is one of the reasons for closing it.
The manual actually instructs us on periodically tiping the machine rearward so the fluids go to the drain hose. In my experience, if you don't tip the machine, you are not draining the tank soon enough.
Fun fact: Even if the hose is closed and the fluids are visible there on the hose, if you turn up the vacuum the liquid will not go again inside the machine.
Now, what happens if you don't drain the machine? Eventually the level of water inside rises up to the point that the water is suctioned into the vacuum impeller, and this is not good for the machine. It will corrode parts of the vacuum impeller.
However, the water can't enter the vacuum _motor_ itself, it can only enter the vacuum _fan_ and for this you would have to tilt it at an extreme angle.
When i bought it, i had the problem that water was dripping down the bottom of the machine. I thought the culprit was that: a loose drain hose.
However the reason was that I was not draining the machine often enough. I thought it just needed draining once a day... wrong! You need to make sure no more than, say, 25mL or 50mL of liquid are inside the machine at any point in time.
The tank is big, however, it is big to prevent the vacuum impeler from suctioning liquid into it. You want the liquid to remain in the tank without going inside the impeller. Thus, even if the tank is rather big, I find it only takes a few milliiliters (150? can't recall -- but i did the experiment) to make the system fail, with water being suctioned into the impeller and making the impeler spit water through the bottom of the unit (i have seen this with my very own eyes).
I now drain the tank every 4 cleanings.
TL,DR; don't forget to drain the tank every 4-8 cleanings.
markd51
Nyuk Nyuk
If I recall, the Recovery Tank is baffled in the manner that there is a vertical divider within the Tank. Still, it is not an infallible system. I say this because aerosols-mists can still make their way to the vacuum motor face.
The External Hose Clamp can be a bit of a Bugger to tightly clamp-seal the Hose End. Do insure you clamp such snugly.
Not uncommon that these can break or go funny over time. One can of course replace such, or rig some other Pet Cock-shutoff at the end of the hose that will positively seal without leakage.
Besides the obvious check when inside the unit of insuring the Drain Hose is snugly clamped to the nipple of the bottom of the Recovery Tank, there's other checks, due to issues that will arise as time passes.
That there's foam gasketing for the Vacuum Motor where its face butts up against the Recovery Tank. Over time such can shrink, shift-deteriorate-whatnot. This can cause a number of issues, loss of vacuum suction, and of course internal leakage.
It's an easy enough machine to work on, not that complicated to keep it operating in tip top shape.
If one finds that certain materials such as foam gasketing needs replacement, insure you use similar materials. You usually won't find Neoprene Foam Gasket at the Home Improvement Stores, Weatherstrip for Windows-Doors isn't the same thing.
Over time and with experience, I found I could clean 12-15 records, both sides with a multi-step process and find that there was not really a lot of Fluids to be drained. One is commonly not using as much as an oz of fluids per record.
Still, it is better to err on checking and draining sooner than later to be safe.
The External Hose Clamp can be a bit of a Bugger to tightly clamp-seal the Hose End. Do insure you clamp such snugly.
Not uncommon that these can break or go funny over time. One can of course replace such, or rig some other Pet Cock-shutoff at the end of the hose that will positively seal without leakage.
Besides the obvious check when inside the unit of insuring the Drain Hose is snugly clamped to the nipple of the bottom of the Recovery Tank, there's other checks, due to issues that will arise as time passes.
That there's foam gasketing for the Vacuum Motor where its face butts up against the Recovery Tank. Over time such can shrink, shift-deteriorate-whatnot. This can cause a number of issues, loss of vacuum suction, and of course internal leakage.
It's an easy enough machine to work on, not that complicated to keep it operating in tip top shape.
If one finds that certain materials such as foam gasketing needs replacement, insure you use similar materials. You usually won't find Neoprene Foam Gasket at the Home Improvement Stores, Weatherstrip for Windows-Doors isn't the same thing.
Over time and with experience, I found I could clean 12-15 records, both sides with a multi-step process and find that there was not really a lot of Fluids to be drained. One is commonly not using as much as an oz of fluids per record.
Still, it is better to err on checking and draining sooner than later to be safe.
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