Myself, I have also used carpenters wood glue it sets up just like the glue they supply with the surrounds, looks the same too. Brand I found that works best is Tight Bound Wood glue it's yellow and dries somewhat flexible when it's put on in the thin layer we use on the surround replacement...Put it on let it setup a bit and it still allows you some adjustment time to get things centered just right!! I don't remove the voice coil covers and use shim unless I have several failed attempts.. So far I had none! George
Prefered Glue for surrounds
- Thread starter djcslice
- Start date
HomeBody
Passion not Critisism
This response gets 5 stars in my book.
We all must learn to walk before we run. And the only way to excel is thru hands-on experience. You must think like a speaker, walk like a speaker, be the speaker at rest and at play.
I just now finished refoaming my pair of Allisons. Out of impatience not wanting to wait for a glue shipment, I tried Aleene's for the first time. I figured why not as nothing was going to stick to the gooey residual matter of the Allison woofers anyway.
Up and playing an hour later. Aleene's on!
Up and playing an hour later. Aleene's on!
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I have been replacing Surrounds as well as Reconing most every possible speaker that is out there for over 30 years. I would never do a surround job without cutting the Dust Cap so that the Voice Coil is exposed and Shimming it before the Surround is replaced. Remember, the Surround is one of two suspension points that keep the Voice Coil in alignment in the gap. If you do not shim the Voice Coil during this process it is very likely that it will no longer be in correct alignment. There are many kits available that include Shims as well as a New Dust Cap. I would avoid the ones that don't. As far as the correct adhesive to use, It needs to be a Water Based Product. Solvent or Petroleum based glues may deteriorate the Surround material.
vinylisfinal
Super Member
i never remove the dust caps. i center the driver utilizing a tone generator. i have re-edged over 500 drivers with no failures. i also have never had an issue using a rubber cement based adhesive either. many of these original drivers used similar adhesives. i have used everything from Aieleens to E6000, Omni-stick,Gorilla Clear grip , surehold sure flex and 3M weatherstrip adhesives.
Conehead285
New Member
I want to re-foam my Paradigm PS-1000 woofer cone, as the surround has completely disintegrated. I am happy with its sound and for now, prefer repairing it vs. buying a new one.
In looking at the various replacement surround kits, they typically come with a nasty solvent-based glue. I stay away from products with a prop. 65 cancer warning as much as possible, and those glues seem to all have it. Call me paranoid, but the warning is on there for a reason.
Many, including many speaker repair professionals and those on this thread, recommend using a non-toxic white glue, such as Aleene’s Tacky Glue, and say it works great. I was all for this until I ran across various debates where critics of white glue accuse those in favor of it as belonging to the “white glue cult” (WGC). I’ll refer to those critics as the anti-white gluers (AWG). Ironically, some of the AWG defend their position with greater religious fervor than the WGC!
The debate seems to have started by this thread, where RoyC did some research and compared using Permatex high tack gasket sealant with white glue and found the latter to increase the speaker Fs. “...I experimented with a number of the white surround "treatments". This group included the stuff sold by Simply Speakers, Orange County, M-Sound, and Global Adhesives (who labels it "white surround dampener"). These are all water soluble/PVA based, and as advertised, dry more flexibly than regular white glue. They are also advertised as being able to be used for a "wet look" on woofer cones. The problem with all of them is that they gradually stiffen. One 3a woofer I experimented on went from an fs of 16hz upon treatment to 32hz after one month! I experienced similar results with all brands on a variety of surrounds.”
I want to avoid reducing the speaker Fs, but also would prefer not to use toxic glues.
My questions:
In looking at the various replacement surround kits, they typically come with a nasty solvent-based glue. I stay away from products with a prop. 65 cancer warning as much as possible, and those glues seem to all have it. Call me paranoid, but the warning is on there for a reason.
Many, including many speaker repair professionals and those on this thread, recommend using a non-toxic white glue, such as Aleene’s Tacky Glue, and say it works great. I was all for this until I ran across various debates where critics of white glue accuse those in favor of it as belonging to the “white glue cult” (WGC). I’ll refer to those critics as the anti-white gluers (AWG). Ironically, some of the AWG defend their position with greater religious fervor than the WGC!
The debate seems to have started by this thread, where RoyC did some research and compared using Permatex high tack gasket sealant with white glue and found the latter to increase the speaker Fs. “...I experimented with a number of the white surround "treatments". This group included the stuff sold by Simply Speakers, Orange County, M-Sound, and Global Adhesives (who labels it "white surround dampener"). These are all water soluble/PVA based, and as advertised, dry more flexibly than regular white glue. They are also advertised as being able to be used for a "wet look" on woofer cones. The problem with all of them is that they gradually stiffen. One 3a woofer I experimented on went from an fs of 16hz upon treatment to 32hz after one month! I experienced similar results with all brands on a variety of surrounds.”
I want to avoid reducing the speaker Fs, but also would prefer not to use toxic glues.
My questions:
- Is there a non-toxic solvent-based foam surround glue that doesn’t have the prop 65 cancer warning?
- If not, then once the solvent-based (or butyl rubber based) glue dries, do the VOCs dissipate enough that prop 65 warning could go away?
- Has anyone found a white (PVA based) glue (or other non-toxic glue) that doesn’t reduce the speaker Fs? And have you actually tested the speaker and measured its Fs later?
Just use a white PVA glue and stop fretting over it.
outlawmws
On the Run
^^^ This... Aleenes dries flexible as does the "provided" white glues I have gotten in kits. Elmers and wood glues do not - very brittle. (I've done extensive testing)
I've also done dozens of surrounds with it and no issues.
Don't overthink it.
BTW everything has a CA Prop 65 warning... Aleenes is about as benign as you are likely to find.
Also Don't coat the surrounds, just glue them to the cone, and to the frame. those people are just playing games IMHO.
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I'm NOT speaking for RoyC but, I believe that thread was related to cloth surround sealant treatment for KLH/AR acoustic suspension type woofs and NOT adhesives for attaching foam surrounds to either the cone or metal frame of a woofer. Just sayin' ...
The nuclear option, volatile hydrocarbon based rubber-like adhesive (MI-3035) that is commonly sold for the "refoam" jobs works great for its intended purpose. I have no experience using PVA glues on metal speaker baskets but it just doesn't SEEM like a good fit. Paper cones, sure. My .02 ...
The nuclear option, volatile hydrocarbon based rubber-like adhesive (MI-3035) that is commonly sold for the "refoam" jobs works great for its intended purpose. I have no experience using PVA glues on metal speaker baskets but it just doesn't SEEM like a good fit. Paper cones, sure. My .02 ...
outlawmws
On the Run
It works just fine. process is a bit different for PVA glue to speakers
Coat, press together and separate,
Ensure good coverage,
let cure for 7-10 min,
Then press and clamp.
Set aside for 24 hours.
Its similar to the contact cement process.
Prop 65 was very well intentioned, but almost everything qualifies for a warning these days. And I don't mean that to exaggerated, the definition is just too wide. The foam itself get a warning.
But aside from all that, no. Water is the safe solvent, but will still destroy a cone before removing hardened glue. Dilution is the solution, if you are concerned with vocs do it outside. Use fans, get a respirator. Isopropyl alcohol will do most of the work for you and that's very safe if you take simple precautions.
Isopropyl alcohol and aileens. The only "safer" combo would be water and elmers.
outlawmws
On the Run
Don't use Elmer's - it dries brittle. so do all the PVA type "wood glues" I've tested.
Aleene's dries flexible.
Have you tried "Mod Podge"? I set up a comparison for myself a while back and found that Mod Podge seemed to dry quicker than either Aleens or the Simply Speakers MI-1291 PVA but stayed flexible like both. Couldn't say whether it was AS flexible because it was just an unscientific check on the three. All three dried to a translucent state. I was trying to identify what may have been used on a SpeakerLab poly speaker cone as a "dampening" treatment. In this case, the treatment actually went part way over the foam surround (about half of the "roll") and actually seemed to protect that part of the foam. The uncoated part of the foam surround completely broke down to dust.
outlawmws
On the Run
Neither Aleene's or Elmer's has any significant dangers - MSDS for both:
Hmmm...I'm game to try it next time I run out of PVA.
Mod Podge "Gloss" IS a PVA based material with other additives, one of which appears to be propylene glycol (antifreeze).
I checked my samples by applying a "blob" of each on a piece of teflon with a polished surface so that it would NOT adhere. Then I placed a small piece of cardstock on part of each blob to give it a handle. I also drew out a part of the blob to provide a sample that went from thick to thin in cross-section. Each of the three that I mentioned above remained similarly flexible but, again, it's kind of subjective ... none of them cracked or were brittle enough to break regardless of how thin or thick the sample was in cross section.
I checked my samples by applying a "blob" of each on a piece of teflon with a polished surface so that it would NOT adhere. Then I placed a small piece of cardstock on part of each blob to give it a handle. I also drew out a part of the blob to provide a sample that went from thick to thin in cross-section. Each of the three that I mentioned above remained similarly flexible but, again, it's kind of subjective ... none of them cracked or were brittle enough to break regardless of how thin or thick the sample was in cross section.
