The new budget speaker king?

[archie2]

I know this is the kind late...

bought 'em a while ago hated them, tried throwing a goldwood in, instead of that woofer but just decided to toss the project.

For about ten minutes I was think of exchanging both drivers for these

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-852
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=297-408

I used this Tang Band tweeter.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-823

 

[Zilch]

The low pass filter I have in there rolls off at 5000 Hz. So maybe I'll bring it down more??

Again, the major problem in Presidian is what that woofer is doing above 3.5 kHz. Your Tang Band tweeters allow you to fix that nicely:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=77013&d=1201834845

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1615299&postcount=141

 

[archie2]

Again, the major problem in Presidian is what that woofer is doing above 3.5 kHz. Your Tang Band tweeters allow you to fix that nicely:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=77013&d=1201834845

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showpo...press.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-198

 

[Zilch]

So I need to bring the tweeter AND the woofer down? I'm trying to work with the existing PE crossover I installed.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-198

Yes. The Tang Band will sound somewhat better, but the REAL problem is the woofer trash-talking above 3.5 kHz. Look at the woofer curves again, all the way back to the ones I first posted in this thread. :yes:

I measured the performance with those crossovers for you:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1681414#post1681414

They do NOT shut the woofer down at a low enough frequency. In fact, they make the overall Presidian performance WORSE than stock. Look at the grey woofer curve there. When that sums with the tweeter actually playing as a tweeter, the result is the green curve. Stock is the red one.... :thumbsdn:

 

[archie2]

Yes. The Tang Band will sound somewhat better, but the REAL problem is the woofer trash-talking above 3.5 kHz. Look at the woofer curves again, all the way back to the ones I first posted in this thread. :yes:

I measured the performance with those crossovers for you:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1681414#post1681414

They do NOT shut the woofer down at a low enough frequency. In fact, they make the overall Presidian performance WORSE than stock. Look at the grey woofer curve there. When that sums with the tweeter actually playing as a tweeter, the result is the green curve. Stock is the red one.... :thumbsdn:

Damn. Back to the drawing board.

 

[Zilch]

Damn. Back to the drawing board.

Build the crossover as I specified. Run it with the stock Presidian tweeters. Hang on to the Tang Bands to install in case the original tweeters get smoked running them that low.

The new crossover works with either tweeters. If you install different woofers, we'll tweak some more. I'm on the lookout for a pair of 506Gs here to try in the mighty Presidians.... :thmbsp:

 

[archie2]

Build the crossover as I specified. Run it with the stock Presidian tweeters. Hang on to the Tang Bands to install in case the original tweeters get smoked running them that low.

The new crossover works with either tweeters. If you install different woofers, we'll tweak some more. I'm on the lookout for a pair of 506Gs here to try in the mighty Presidians.... :thmbsp:

Thanks for all your input Zilch but I'm not tossing another approximately 40 - 45 bucks at this "budget" speaker.

 

[Zilch]

Thanks for all your input Zilch but I'm not tossing another approximately 40 - 45 bucks at this "budget" speaker.

O.K., put your beautiful Tang Bands in AR4xs, then, as I showed in another thread.

The "JBL Model L19 Crossovers" you'll need have a $15 BIN on eBay right now. Those may work for Tang Band Presidians, as well.

If you buy them, I'll check that out for you.

[Wiredbecker spotted them this morning.... :thmbsp: ]

 

[archie2]

O.K., put your beautiful Tang Bands in AR4xs, then, as I showed in another thread.

The "JBL Model L19 Crossovers" you'll need have a $15 BIN on eBay right now. Those may work for Tang Band Presidians, as well.

If you buy them, I'll check that out for you.

[Wiredbecker spotted them this morning.... :thmbsp: ]

Will the JBL crossover work with the stock Presidian tweeters as well? I understand they could fry them but what are the chances? Looks like I would need to make a bigger cut out on the back. Then I could leave the stock tweeters in and use the Tang Bands in the 4X's.

 

[Zilch]

Will the JBL crossover work with the stock Presidian tweeters as well? I understand they could fry them but what are the chances? Looks like I would need to make a bigger cut out on the back. Then I could leave the stock tweeters in and use the Tang Bands in the 4X's.

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical Sheet/L19 ts.pdf

How close are they to what you need for Presidians?

What would you have to change to get there?

If I recall, an additional capacitor is required to make them work best in AR4x, but you can look that up in the ZilchMod AR4x posts.

If you put them in your Presidians, what would you use for your Tang Band AR4xs?

Where is it most appropriate to put good tweeters and more $$$?

 

[archie2]

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical Sheet/L19 ts.pdf

How close are they to what you need for Presidians?

What would you have to change to get there?

If I recall, an additional capacitor is required to make them work best in AR4x, but you can look that up in the ZilchMod AR4x posts.

If you put them in your Presidians, what would you use for your Tang Band AR4xs?

Where is it most appropriate to put good tweeters and more $$$?

Good questions all. I plan to upgrade the 4X crossovers anyway so adding 1 more cap isn't a problem. Although the 4X's are a little large, I could swap them out with the Presidians. I think for me, I've over reached the point of return on the Presidians. They serve their purpose in their present state. The Tang Band would seem to benefit me more in the 4X's than the Presidians. I'll check out your thread on the 4X mod.

One thing I'm curious about. You say the PE crossover I have in the Presidians is worse than the stock. My ears don't agree with that as the "under water" sound is gone to a large degree. I don't see how anything could be worse than the single stock 1 uF cap, except no crossover at all.

 

[Zilch]

One thing I'm curious about. You say the PE crossover I have in the Presidians is worse than the stock. My ears don't agree with that as the "under water" sound is gone to a large degree. I don't see how anything could be worse than the single stock 1 uF cap, except no crossover at all.

From the perspective of solving the issues in Presidian, one of which is excess response in the the HF, pushing that even higher clearly misses the mark, green:

While it may sound "better" because it's now the tweeter playing it in addition to the woofer, the approach is counterproductive in terms of actually improving the system overall. You've got to turn off the woofer up there, and let the tweeter do its job.

It was suggested early in the thread that the "under water" character, whatever that is intended to describe, was the result of a "hole" in the upper midrange response. I do see one there in the 2 - 4 kHz range, but bumping up the high frequencies even more only serves to exacerbate that. No, what you're actually hearing is the inherent coloration of the woofer playing well outside of its range.

If you or anyone else thinks it sounds better, fine, I have no issue with that, but I can't take any of it seriously in the face of what I objectively find the problems to be, my purpose being to make them sound good to everyone.

It's the classic subjectivist/objectivist polarity in evidence again, and frankly, I wish you would just go ahead and fix the Presidians by spending the $40 on the new crossovers for use with the stock woofer and tweeter and see for yourself whether my analysis has merit.

You may still be able to return those PE crossovers for credit, which will get you half way there.... :thmbsp:

 

[archie2]

From the perspective of solving the issues in Presidian, one of which is excess response in the the HF, pushing that even higher clearly misses the mark, green:

While it may sound "better" because it's now the tweeter doing it instead of the woofer, the approach is counterproductive in terms of actually improving the system.

It was suggested early in the thread that the "under water" character, whatever that is intended to describe, was the result of a "hole" in the upper midrange response. I do see one there in the 2 - 4 kHz range, but bumping up the high frequencies even more only serves to exacerbate that.

If you or anyone else thinks it sounds better, fine, but I can't take any of that seriously in the face of what I objectively find the problems to be, my purpose being to make them sound good to everyone.

It's the classic subjectivist/objectivist polarity in evidence again, and frankly, I wish you would just go ahead and fix the Presidians by spending the $40 on the new crossovers for use with the stock woofer and tweeter and see for yourself if my analysis has merit.

You may still be able to return those PE crossovers for credit, which will get you half way there.... :thmbsp:

Zilch , :thmbsp: I have no doubt your analysis has merit:yes: The mod. I made to the Presidians sound better than the stock, that's what I meant. I'm sure yours sound even better. I did drop the woofer at 5000Hz, a 6 db slope but a noticeable drop nonetheless. The tweeter should be kicking in at about 4500 Hz. I think the stock crossover had it kicking in at 10000Hz. I don't have the knowledge or equipment to measure and interpret the results. Read your posts on the AR 4X as well, I found the discussion on the TB tweeters but failed to find the added cap. I'll look more when I get the chance. Looks like I'd need an adapter plate to retrofit the TB tweeters in the 4X's if I decide to do so.

 

[Zilch]

I did drop the woofer at 5000Hz, a 6 db slope but a noticeable drop nonetheless. The tweeter should be kicking in at about 4500 Hz.

Well, no, the woofer's still playing strong at 8 kHz, creating a nasty peak there, and the tweeter's down nearly 10 dB at 4.5 kHz. It doesn't "kick in" (- 3dB) 'til 7 kHz.

Again, you like it, that's all well and fine, but it does not behave as you suppose it does:

These are not simulations. They're the actual PE crossover running the actual drivers.

Why am I persisting with this? Well, I'm all done with it again now.

['Til I find some 506Gs.... : ]

Looks like I'd need an adapter plate to retrofit the TB tweeters in the 4X's if I decide to do so.

Yes. I make it out of aluminum, but masonite or similar will work also, as long as it all gets sealed. :yes:

 

[archie2]

"Why am I persisting with this? Well, I'm all done with it again now.... "
Glad you persisted Zilch. I understand what you are saying and understand your graph. I know I'm dealing with slopes, but I cannot identify them. Anyway I'm saving this thread for reference. Thanks for all your help.

 

[Zilch]

I understand what you are saying and understand your graph. I know I'm dealing with slopes, but I cannot identify them.

The slopes are electrical, the voltage drives of the filters. They combine with the response of the driver to produce the net acoustic crossover.

If you have a 6 dB/octave filter and a driver with a 6 dB/octave rising response, there's no rolloff, and no crossing over. All it does is flatten the acoustic result, and thus you need a steeper filter to do the job, unless that's all you desire to accomplish.

There are no ideal drivers. You must either work with their known response characteristics in a particular alignment and system, or measure to ascertain them.... :yes:

 

[archie2]

Kudos to Zilch for his patience, education, and knowledge, and his willingness to share all three with others:tresbon:

 

[oicdn]

Dang...so modded, these really aren't half bad??? I'm surprised this thread is still going, as those speakers are no longer available, lol.

 

[Zilch]

Dang...so modded, these really aren't half bad??? I'm surprised this thread is still going, as those speakers are no longer available, lol.

They are substantially improved by installing real crossovers built according to my schematic, fiberglass damping, and closing the port.

It costs about $40 to do that. That's what they originally sold for, so by one view, since we bought them on closeout for $15, it's a $15 upgrade. :

[Still may be some around Radio Shacks, actually.... :yes: ]

 

[oicdn]

They are substantially improved by installing real crossovers built according to my schematic, fiberglass damping, and closing the port.

It costs about $40 to do that. That's what they originally sold for, so by one view, since we bought them on closeout for $15, it's a $15 upgrade. :

[Still may be some around Radio Shacks, actually.... :yes: ]

Haha!:thmbsp:

Well, tey no longer show up on teh Radio shack website, and all the stores around me sold thier last ones about 2 days after I posted it here, lol.