So, that would mean the connection to your speakers is also inferior.....lol
High level is superior because it has the exact same timing and amplifier sound signature that your speakers receive.
The truth about subwoofers
- Thread starter JoeESP9
- Start date
So, that would mean the connection to your speakers is also inferior.....lol
High level is superior because it has the exact same timing and amplifier sound signature that your speakers receive.
You posed a scenario now attempt to debunk your own test lol?
Now that's some serious waffling right there.
Exact same sound signature lol? Now that's funny. Do your mains have a second amplifier identical to the one in your sub adding it's coloration to "their" signal?
I prefer the amp driving my sub and the amp driving my mains receive the same signal off my preamp.
My speakers don't have an amplifier built in that accept line level and required to "deal with" a high level input a la a soundbooster in a 1970's car lol.
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jazzmans
Super Member
Yup. I only have 2 channel and, to my ears, Line level wins
Of course, all my connections are balanced as well.
So, your most expensive ("high end") subwoofer sounds better than your lower end units, and you attribute this to the connection method?
Your reading comprehension needs work.
I'm sorry, but you really have no idea what you're talking about.
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Still reading between the lines eh lol.
When you're done with that let me know and maybe we can actually have a discussion.
Does it, I'm pretty sure this was your post about how to tell which is better lol, now you state this isn't a real test? Now that's funny lol.
"Have you ever tried both connection methods in a 2 channel only system, no AVR?"
Whatever you've been drinking or smoking tonight.....you've had too much.
So now you're stating you didn't post this as your proof? That using a 2 channel vs an AVR would reveal the truth?
"Have you ever tried both connection methods in a 2 channel only system, no AVR?"
The waffling continues lol.
When you can get your story straight then let's continue, otherwise.......
That's not what I said at all. Like I said, your reading comprehension needs work.
It's a wonder all of our dedicated power amps don't have speaker level inputs lol.
When you have compared the same sub with the two dfferent methods, I might be interested in a discussion.
You have a self-described high-end subwoofer. You say it sounds good. No surprise there. You say it only has low level connections. It is flawed logic to conclude from this that low level connections sound better than high level connections, or that all good subwoofers have only low level connections.
Your opinion, contrary to the author(s) of the cited article, is that low level connections are notably better. I've got no issue with that
...differing opinions are rampant. But coming to that opinion based on comparing a better sub to a lesser sub doesn't make sense to me.
I have compared pairs of three different mid-grade subs using high and low level connections, and could not conclude that there was a material difference.
Well, now that you've edited this post with an addendum.
Why yes, of course, I have several subs, my Daytons offer both options and I prefer the line level, it's much cleaner.
You seem to like jumping to conclusions.
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I’ve used just about all type of subs and many different brands of subs . I prefer the sound of a sealed servo sub and have used them for years. I specifically prefer the Velodyne HGS series and I own the 12in version, used to have two and I agree that two is better than one for subs but situations arise sometimes that prevent one from having two . Anyway subs are like speakers it’s all subjective, there is no right or wrong to how one prefers the bass , but the list posted by Audiohaulics have Good info.
Audiofreak71
Audiofreak71
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quiet
Addicted Member
As I read though the list it occurred to me that it was a run down on their experience. Their opinion. And not to be taken as fact absolute. No objective back up data.
I don't have any subs, but I did put forth the effort to borrow a pair of subs last year. My sub nut friend said they cost about $400 and were low grade but good enough to satisfy my curiosity about subs.
My subjective observation was that in this 14x16 room they sounded best when place under the two speakers they were working with. And the bass was directional.
So what I like is different than what I'm supposed to like according to the myth list.
I don't have any subs, but I did put forth the effort to borrow a pair of subs last year. My sub nut friend said they cost about $400 and were low grade but good enough to satisfy my curiosity about subs.
My subjective observation was that in this 14x16 room they sounded best when place under the two speakers they were working with. And the bass was directional.
So what I like is different than what I'm supposed to like according to the myth list.
For home theater I always use line level. For 2-channel music-only all analog system (no DSP/bass management), I prefer the sub via high-level outputs than line level every time.
The argument for speaker level input is that, since you want the sub to be a seamless extension of the mains, it is better to drive the sub with the exact same signal as the mains. If there is any coloration or non-linearity in the amp, the sub and mains see the same coloration and non-linearity and they sound more seamlessly integrated. The counter to that argument is that the coloration and non-linearity of the amp isn't significant enough to make difference.
The argument for line level is that there is less noise/distortion using the line-level output, which is true. The counter to that is that the added noise/distortion of any quality amp is trivial (especially compared to the high measured distortion levels of all subwoofers).
There is an argument for and against both sides. It's "mains and subs being driven by identical signals with slightly higher distortion" vs "lower distortion but with subs and mains being driven by less uniform signals".
The article is pretty senseless -- it talks about "delay" in the amp as if amp delay is the justification for speaker level, which is ridiculous, the delay of an analog amp is infinitesimal. Then it asks "why would adding the amp delay be good?". The reason it would be good is because, if there was amp delay, the subs and mains would be delayed the same amount vs the mains being delayed more than the subs. But delay is not the issue in analog (it is in DSP systems) -- coloration and non-linearity of the amp is possible, and it is better for the mains and subs to see the same thing.
The best thing to do is to listen to both -- line level vs speaker level and choose which sounds best. For 2-channel analog systems, I've always found speaker level sounds a lot better integrated with the mains than line level. Everyone should choose based upon what they hear when they try it. Most of the people who have told me unconditionally that line level is better have never tried speaker level. Some of them admit they have never tried it and refuse to try it because they know the distortion is lower. It's true that distortion is lower, but they are ignoring the uniformity of signal advantage of driving both subs and mains from exact the same signal.
I would not dream of saying which is best for anyone else, but everyone should try both and choose what sounds best to themselves.
The argument for speaker level input is that, since you want the sub to be a seamless extension of the mains, it is better to drive the sub with the exact same signal as the mains. If there is any coloration or non-linearity in the amp, the sub and mains see the same coloration and non-linearity and they sound more seamlessly integrated. The counter to that argument is that the coloration and non-linearity of the amp isn't significant enough to make difference.
The argument for line level is that there is less noise/distortion using the line-level output, which is true. The counter to that is that the added noise/distortion of any quality amp is trivial (especially compared to the high measured distortion levels of all subwoofers).
There is an argument for and against both sides. It's "mains and subs being driven by identical signals with slightly higher distortion" vs "lower distortion but with subs and mains being driven by less uniform signals".
The article is pretty senseless -- it talks about "delay" in the amp as if amp delay is the justification for speaker level, which is ridiculous, the delay of an analog amp is infinitesimal. Then it asks "why would adding the amp delay be good?". The reason it would be good is because, if there was amp delay, the subs and mains would be delayed the same amount vs the mains being delayed more than the subs. But delay is not the issue in analog (it is in DSP systems) -- coloration and non-linearity of the amp is possible, and it is better for the mains and subs to see the same thing.
The best thing to do is to listen to both -- line level vs speaker level and choose which sounds best. For 2-channel analog systems, I've always found speaker level sounds a lot better integrated with the mains than line level. Everyone should choose based upon what they hear when they try it. Most of the people who have told me unconditionally that line level is better have never tried speaker level. Some of them admit they have never tried it and refuse to try it because they know the distortion is lower. It's true that distortion is lower, but they are ignoring the uniformity of signal advantage of driving both subs and mains from exact the same signal.
I would not dream of saying which is best for anyone else, but everyone should try both and choose what sounds best to themselves.
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The mains and sub are not seeing the same signal. The mains don't have a second amplifier adding additional coloration to the signal.
Much more likely to have less alteration to the signal from the preamp if both the main and sub amps see the identical signal, rather than one having twice as much circuitry to go through than the other eh? Very simple really.
This might help.
If I had two pair of speakers I wanted to connect, my preamp has two pair of main outs. I get three dedicated power amps, two identical from Adcom, the third a B&K. I connect both Adcoms to the pre, then connect one pair of speakers directly to one Adcom.
The other Adcom runs through the B&K then to the second pair of speakers. How in God's name are these two pair of speakers now receiving the same signal? Ridiculous lol.
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Ok, the mains and the "sub amp" see the same signal. Yes, the sub amp can add its own coloration, but that doesn't change that it (at least theoretically) can be better for the mains and sub amp to see the same colored signal out of the stereo amp.
It really isn't that simple at all. If you look at the measured distortion of any subwoofer, it becomes crystal clear that "added distortion" from any quality amp means less than nothing for a sub. Coloration and non-linearity in an amp, if it exists, can make a difference because it slightly changes the character of the sound (so sub and mains pick up the same coloration with speaker-level).
I would never say speaker-level is definitively better -- especially since it depends on the specifics of the equipment you own, but to say that line-level is unequivocally better is not appropriate either -- it is ignoring the (at least theoretical) advantage that speaker-level results in the mains and sub amp seeing the same coloration of the amp. You can definitely argue lower distortion with line-level, and I agree, but that isn't the whole picture and it really isn't even relevant given subwoofer output distortion levels.
After passing through the second amplifier the theory falls completely apart, the sub driver is seeing a completely different signal. The only thing this accomplishes is adding even more circuitry into the signal path, and THAT'S always a good thing eh?
The high level inputs are there for those that have lower tier equipment that have no other option, if that insults anyone it wasn't intentional. Not everyone finds it important to invest in separates, or upper tier receivers etc that offer pre outs, and that's fine. But that shouldn't exclude their using a subwoofer, or retailers offering an option so they can by including high level inputs. I'm sure their sales would be severely hurt if this option wasn't included, shrewd business move.
As for subwoofer distortion, have you looked at the astonishingly low distortion numbers generated by quality servo subs? Not all subs are created equal. I'll see if I can locate the specs for my sub, purchased more than a dozen moves ago and things get lost.
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