Wow And Flutter

[maxhifi]

Unfortunately the Fluance turntables also have a fixed spindle and I hate it. Why would anybody think that is a good thing?

Can't help but wonder if the mechanism is a carry over from record changers of the past. Seems like a very bad design for a high end table.

 

[RDW]

Can't help but wonder if the mechanism is a carry over from record changers of the past. Seems like a very bad design for a high end table.

Possibly but the manual spindles on all of my changers rotate, only the long spindles are fixed.

 

[maxhifi]

Possibly but the manual spindles on all of my changers rotate, only the long spindles are fixed.

I only have the Garrard RC-90, I can't remember if its manual play spindle rotates.

 

[RDW]

I only have the Garrard RC-90, I can't remember if its manual play spindle rotates.

Maybe not being an older model. Both my Garrard SL95 and Miracord 770H rotate.

 

[Nat]

How/why do any of these tables have fixed spindles? It would seem to me that the standard steel shaft in a brass or bronze bearing would be much cheaper than a fixed shaft which requires a ball race and just as careful (if not more so) machining of the tapered shaft, and then the extra spindle parts, all to achieve higher noise and probably wow and flutter. Only an automatic changer mechanism would justify the extra complexity and worse results. And as noticed, many the changers of the 70s had rotating inserts in their manual spindles.
Certainly the Dual cited seems to have the standard spindle and bearing. And a quick look at the Fluance site suggests they do too.
Maybe RDW is refering to something different than I think he is.

 

[rlgabe]

This is the best I can do to explain it in written English: wow & flutter explained.

TL;DR: 0.1% JIS WRMS is about the same as ±0.2% DIN, and is sufficient to consider the machine good enough for "hi-fi" moniker, although hardcore audiophiles strive for smaller numbers.

IMHO, it is less important for vinyl than for cassette, because with cassette, wobble is added when you record and then when you play. With LP you only play.

Just having fun with you!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[rlgabe]

As pointed out above the numbers mean very little today because one doesn’t know how the data was collected or what equipment was used. Just one for instance, was this during playback with the needle dropped?

The main point is—there isn’t any organization setting standards that all manufacturers are following and/or meeting

NARTB Standards were just that, a standard methodology with specific equipment and when one reads the documentation (Recording & Playback) it specifies a spread of .2 — .4 W&F Assuming this spread was because it included tape mediums…

Turntable manufacturers of that period meet and/or exceeded the .2 W&F standard, below is a Fairchild add which outlines the standard:
View attachment 2695381 View attachment 2695382

Very Cool !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BillWojo]

Turntable manufacturers of that period meet and/or exceeded the .2 W&F standard, below is a Fairchild add which outlines the standard:

@adnick, thanks for sharing that Fairchild advertisement. I was aware of the turntable, and really enjoyed your build of one, but that electronic frequency generator using tubes is new to me. I wonder if there are any in use still today? I can see why Fairchild was such a prominent company and held in high esteem back in the day. Explains the price of a lot of it as well. LOL

BillWojo

 

[adnick]

Turntable manufacturers of that period meet and/or exceeded the .2 W&F standard, below is a Fairchild add which outlines the standard:

@adnick, thanks for sharing that Fairchild advertisement. I was aware of the turntable, and really enjoyed your build of one, but that electronic frequency generator using tubes is new to me. I wonder if there are any in use still today? I can see why Fairchild was such a prominent company and held in high esteem back in the day. Explains the price of a lot of it as well. LOL

BillWojo

Yeah Bill one or two people here have one, and someone here built their own version but don’t recall who, maybe look in the Fairchild 412 registry thread….

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Well they are, but in name only. Not the same company at all that they were even a few years ago, and certainly not the company they were in the 70s.

And Duals were better when the 10 series were current. The 1209 is a good 1200 series Dual, the 1218, 1219, and 1229 were the last Duals which were up to what Dual could build. For me, the 1019 was the best Dual ever built.

 

[lini]

(...) Certainly the Dual cited seems to have the standard spindle and bearing. (...)

Nope. Fixed spindle. Really. Evidence to follow...

Alright, there you go:

Here's a pic of the underside of the Pro-Ject variant - with the nut on the right side fixing that spindle to the chassis plate: https://hifi.de/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Pro-Ject-A1-Innen-1024x768.jpg

And there you can see the same thing in case of a Dual CS415-2: https://www.dual-board.de/core/index.php?attachment/251738-img-4501-jpeg/

Same CS415-2, fixed spindle, upper side: https://www.dual-board.de/core/index.php?attachment/251747-img-4510-jpeg/

And there the upper side of the sub-platter: https://www.dual-board.de/core/index.php?attachment/251744-img-4507-jpeg/ And the underside there: https://www.dual-board.de/core/index.php?attachment/251746-img-4509-jpeg/ As you can see: No ball race, just a sleeve bearing.

That's why I always suggested to avoid the CS415-2 (as well as the CS415-1, which afaik was the first Fehrenbacher-Dual to sport that lousy drive variant) and also the CS435-1. Whereas the initial CS415 (and also the semi-automatic CS410) and CS435 (and the semi-automatic CS430) still sported the better drive variant with rotating spindle - but in my view for hifi fans the models below the CS455 (and CS450) and the later CS455-1 never really were recommendable, anyway.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[DavidTT]

I'm QUITE sure that none of the Fluance machines use a fixed spindle. Not sure where this came from but it's wrong.

Also, hobbyists obsess about W&F but almost never discuss that there are virtually ZERO records that are perfectly centered on the spindle hole NOR are perfectly flat. The idea that infinitesimal W&F is critical is absurd for anyone who actually looks at the records they play on their turntables.

 

[JP]

Cumulative errors are generally worth reasonable avoidance.

 

[RDW]

I'm QUITE sure that none of the Fluance machines use a fixed spindle. Not sure where this came from but it's wrong.

It was from me and yes you are correct, the spindle turns with the platter and is fixed to it. I was confused because I was expecting a bearing like on the Garrard and Miracord tables. Thanks for correcting me.

 

[DavidTT]

I've owned several of the popular modern machines including a Fluance, a U-Turn Orbit and others. I've not heard any W&F nor am I aware that users complain about speed stability, in general, with modern machines. Further, many hobbyists are rocking ancient used 'vintage' machines that are likely not anywhere near the 'spec' they were manufactured to in the first place, and that includes me (Thorens TD-160). W&F is little more than an abstraction in most cases, including the super-low W&F numbers published by DD makes and any turntable made during the specs wars of the 1970s and early 1980s.

Sure, there may be a few super cheapo outliers that are truly bad, but most of the entry level machines from makers like Pro-Jects, Hanpins and Ya Horngs are not among the bad apples.

It's great to discuss the issue but I find some of this specs anality misleading (at best) for a newcomer looking for a first turntable.

 

[patient_ot]

When I get a new record that is visually off-center as observed by tonearm sway, I return it.

When I get a used record that is off-center I will return it or give it away and look for another copy if I cannot easily get it centered manually.

Heard w/f clear as day on some cheap TTs, including a Pro-ject set up at a big box store.

Not everyone is sensitive to it and it is audible more easily on certain types of music than others.

 

[J. Rob]

FWIW, I have a cassette deck with 0.25% W&F....I can't hear any of it.

 

[Late Boomer]

FWIW, I have a cassette deck with 0.25% W&F....I can't hear any of it.

It is NO MORE THAN 0.25%. Hopefully, it is much, much lower. As the manufacturer spec'd 0.25%, you would not be able to return the deck with 0.2% despite that wobble at 0.2% WRMS is clearly noticeable on slow strings and piano.

 

[Nat]

I don't recommend disagreeing with lini - it's usually a profitless enterprise. But in this case, I'm going to ignore my own advice. The turntable cited was the CS 418, and the ad shows the steel spindle in a brass bearing. Not only can you see the gap between the spindle and bearing, but you can see the small bump on the side of the bearing that is, I assume the screw that traps the spindle.
Other modern Duals, Projects, and so on, may use fixed spindles, (and I did ask why anyone would do such a thing) but I don't think the one the guy was referring to does.

 

[lini]

Nat: Ahhh, confusion... I thought your "cited Dual" would refer to the CS415-2 (and the Automat A1).

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini