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Do all amplifiers sound the same?

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Looks fine to me...

I'd suggest the 'right-click / save target as' to save on server bandwidth. :thmbsp:

Thanks!!!
 
I remember reading that article in Stereo Review. They claim that if there is not less than a 5% probability of a listener being right in hearing a difference then they would not consider it conclusive. That seems like an example of lying with statistics.

For those believers that there is no audible difference between "properly designed" amps, regardless of whether they are tube or SS, then please post what amp you have in your system, and if it isn't a bottom dollar per watt amp, will you please explain your reason for having it. PM me if you have a McIntosh, Krell, Levinson, or other "high-end" amp that you will trade for my Yamaha M-80 on a watt for watt basis. :D
 
RichPA said:
Please let's not do this.
I don't see any reason not to. This is completely different from any 'cable' bitchfest. As long as the conversation is genteel, let the opinions flow.

I'd would like to see this discussion meander close to the topic of whether SR's testing methodology is sufficient to expose the differences in the amps, or whether a test such as this is valid at all, but that's not a requirement for posting. Personally, I do NOT think amps sound the same, but I also would NOT really want to participate in a double-blind test such as SR did.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. :yes:
 
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EchoWars said:
I don't see any reason not to. This is completely different from any 'cable' bitchfest. As long as the conversation is genteel, let the opinions flow.

I'd would like to see this discussion meander close to the topic of whether SR's testing methodology is sufficient to expose the differences in the amps, or whether a test such as this is valid at all, but that's not a requirement for posting. Personally, I do NOT think amps sound the same, but I also would NOT really want to participate in a double-blind test such as SR did.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. :yes:

Well, I'll just try to avoid posting statistics lessons and why failing to find a statistically significant difference is entirely different than showing that no difference exists. Don't mean to be a spoilsport, it is just that over the years I've seen the same few "tests" dragged out repeatedly as the basis for "they can't sound different" versus "they do sound different."

Seriously, sorry if I seemed too negative ...
 
I actually have a different problem with this test.

I firmly believe that the preamp and speakers have greater effects on the sound of your system than the amp. I am not claiming that all amps sound the same, but I definently question whether you could distinguish the amp through the colorations of the pre and especially the speakers used. Early Maggies were not full range.

Just adding fuel to the fire for both parties :)
 
Ok then, where's the blind test that shows there is a difference? Stereophile?

The 5% thing has to do with the probability that you can pick the right thing by chance. For example, if you flip a coin 10 times and repeat 10 times (100 total flips) and one set of 10 flips comes up 6 heads and 4 tails, then it's purely by chance that it came out that way. The total of 100 flips will be close to 50/50 although it could be 54/46. It doesn't mean that the coin flipper was able to control the outcome; it just means that this outcome will be closer to the edge of the bell (curve).

Murray
 
For me, the fact that this is even a debate at all settles the debate. If this many folks who are into this kind of thing can't agree on this, then my ears are never going to hear the difference. Shoot, I can't even hear that vinyl sounds better than CDs.

Ed
 
Amps Sound Different

I have read the article - or most of it anyways.

I just went through this with my own equipment.

First of all - I am a trained Musician with decades of "playing (and listening I might add)" If anyone knows what to listen for, it is probably me. (Let's assume for now that the goal is to reproduce live music in our own homes from a recorded medium)

Here is what happened.

I had an amp - a good one - I bought a second amp, also good, but most likely not quite up to the first one and about one third the money.

After 4 days in a row (5-7 hrs per day - I take a $1200 dollar investment seriously) of listening to the new amp, I "concluded" that it was almost equal to the original "better" - $3600 amp.

"Yay - good buy"

However,

I was wrong!

It was not until I put the "better" amp back in the system did it become apparent that IT was DEFINITELY better than the new amp (more open, more detail, more focus , more present, drum heads sounded more like drums and not like cardboard, there was more air, more placement, more transparency, AND tighter bass with more control. - more "you are there"

Now, that is all real for me.

- BUT, it took several days of listening to recordings (that I know well) to really set the sonic capabilities of that new amp in my head -

but only 5 minutes after I put the Jadis back in the system - I knew how they compared - without any doubt.

The point is -It takes a lot of work to really rate the "sound of an amp" - it is easy to be tricked . Also, any amount of "better" is very hard to quantify!

There definitely is a law of diminishing returns in effect when buying "Hi-Fi" equipment. Many - many people I know love their Bose Wave machines ($500) and consider my $9000 system ridiculously close in sound to what they have. I think the folks out there who spent $100,000 on their systems, which are marginally better than mine, wasted $90,000 - it goes on.

Amps do sound better or worse - however, it is all in the ears of the beholder.


now what,

Rickster
 
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IMO - there are minor differences in sound that is depending on many factors. Most amps do not sound the same. Topology, individual component choice, age factors, hearing ability, personnal choice of music etc. etc. are some of the factors. Again, this is just my opinion.
 
Sure...but could you pick out the 'better' amp with any statistical regularity in a double-blind test?

The guys in the SR test couldn't. :)
 
RichPA said:
Well, I'll just try to avoid posting statistics lessons and why failing to find a statistically significant difference is entirely different than showing that no difference exists.
Hmmm...now my curiosity is piqued. I don't disagree with you, but I can't help but wonder that if...a group of people can't tell the difference, and their guesses show that they are, well, pretty much guessing, then what's the use of any scientific methodology...the same methodology that gives us the high-tech we all enjoy on a daily basis and permeates our very existance?

The real point that SR is trying to make is that there isn't thousands of dollars difference between the cheap-ass amp and the 'OMFG that's EXPENSIVE' amp. If there was, then the panel should have done better than 95%, given the price differences. Eh? :D
Don't mean to be a spoilsport, it is just that over the years I've seen the same few "tests" dragged out repeatedly as the basis for "they can't sound different" versus "they do sound different."
Well, let's just say that the differences are so small that it makes them insignificant, according to the test results.
Seriously, sorry if I seemed too negative ...
Don't be...no reason why this can't be bantered about. I will admit I'm playing the Devil's advocate here, for the most part I'm on your side.
 
Amp differences

I have done this type of thing over the years on several occasions. . . Although not near the level of this article. Mine were done by myself and one audiophile speakerbuilder friend who always had to have the best (most expensive) while I had more middle of the road gear.

I have used my Adcom, Rotel and my Pioneer SX-1250/1050 receivers against his Krells/ Levinson and a couple other high dollar guys that I can not remember their names. . .

Speakers were his DIY jobs that he used very expensive Dane drivers mostly.

The thing that we both could agree on was that we both could hear differences between amps that had high damping factors vs low damping amps. . . but that was the extint of it. . . I am quite sure this was a function of his loudspeakers and not the amps except their ability to keep the speakers controled.

We could pick the high damping amps near 100% however we could not tell which brand. . . Either he would run the test where I was "blind" or I would run it where he was "blind"

We wasted many hours, drank lots of beers, got in way to many arguements but what a good way to pass the time. . . :smoke:
 
While the sonic differences of amps may not be as obvious as those of pre-amps, phono stages, phono cartridges, etc. there is objective evidence of waveform differences between amps. The differences may be subtle, but are enough to make a superbly engineered amp sound better than a consumer grade amp. There are also other factors for choosing an amp: the ability to drive difficult loads, brute power, build quality, esthetics, etc.
 
Fascinating discussion, and, as always, one of the most interesting topics. I agree, if we keep it civil there's no reason this can't be very worthwhile.

I think there's about three different things happening at once when you're trying to figure out for yourself whether or not you can hear a significant difference, especially between an inexpensive amp, a much more expensive amp, and (I love this one!) the OMFG amp.

As was pointed out (if I can remember any of my engineering statistics from too many decades ago) the level of chance guessing when listening to two different amps (or coin tosses) that you can't see is way higher than 50%. If a group of experienced listeners participate in a double blind test and guess correctly 60%, 65% of the time, that still does not indicate that a difference could be heard. The smaller the number of test points the higher the number will go, and vice versa, but it never gets down to 50% unless the number of test points goes to infinity.

Rich_Perry's comments pointed out another interesting issue...he knew which one he was listening to. I just read about another dbt using Coke and Pepsi, in which the test subjects had EEG's attached to their brains to read brain wave activity during the test. I forget the exact scientific explanation, but apparently the brain activity was markedly different among test subjects who had an opinion of which one they like the best while they were testing the two different drinks. In other words, they couldn't shut down their preconceived opinions even if they tried...it was kind of "hard-wired" in. If you already know which one is the expensive one and which one is the inexpensive one, it's impossible to eliminate that knowledge from the test. To use an OT example, if you're a tube guy vs a SS guy, you'll tend to go with what you already like.

Finally, the old "how much of your budget would you spend on different components" conundrum, i.e. you're not really listening to your amp, of course, you're listening to your speakers. Poor performing speakers won't uncover subtle differences between different amps, so there has to be an assumption that the speakers being used will have sufficient ability to "resolve" differences to be useful. In the same vein, Reyneman mentioned the very commonly held belief that the pre matters more, anyway. I think I lean that way, also. From a purely electronic circuit viewpoint, a power amp is (can be) a very, very simple device, with relatively few components, and does a very simple thing. Since it's the last point before the speakers (& cables) it certainly matters, but if you go back to the old computer GIGO thing, if it simply amplifies what it's fed (I think that's a low distortion comment!) then it shouldn't have a readily distinguishable affect on the sound.

If you have a nice system with a good pre and good speakers, and you swap back and forth between two amps with the same power rating and comparable THD & IM figures, I don't believe you will be able to hear a difference a statistically relevant amount of the time. Btw, this does NOT mean that I think specs are the most important thing. I don't. I believe they certainly matter, a lot, but I also believe there are things going on inside the brain in the area of psychoacoustics that are not clearly understood.

To sum up, once you pass a certain price/quality threshold (and I don't know what that is, but it isn't high) then the power amp is no longer the most important thing in your system, because you no longer will be able to hear changes in power amps as easily as you will be able to hear changes in preamps or speakers.

Ah, the first coffee buzz of the morning, and fingers flying over the keyboard! :D

Clay
 
I think the two relevant points mentioned so far have been
1.) what system is the amp in? and
2.) the law of diminishing returns.

I mentioned earlier that I (and my wife) can easily distinguish between amps of different topologies driving my Klipshorns. That's probably because they are so efficient, that I'm usually only driving about 1/2 watt per speaker. Older McIntosh stuff sounds dead, cheap solid state sounds grainy, good SS state sounds nice, PP Tube sounds nice, SE tube sounds excellent.

As mentioned several times, it would probably be very difficult (or impossible) to tell a $500 SS amp from a $5000 SS amp. My guess is that you would need some mighty fine ears and a lot of listening to be able to discern a difference. This may even hold true for a $1000 SS amp vs. a $1000 tube amp. But to say that any two amps sound the same is misleading. It really needs some qualification of what type of amps you are comparing.

Mark
 
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