Do all amplifiers sound the same?

[mg196]

I suppose a very easy way to see differences in amps would be to upload music from the amps into your Mac (computer, that is) and do a simple spectral analysis in any ol' sound editor. Even better than A/B switching, you can SEE the difference in signals.

Make sense?

 

[Holst]

I think the two relevant points mentioned so far have been
1.) what system is the amp in? and
2.) the law of diminishing returns.

1.IMHO Amps are open circuit's, the speaker is the rest or the load. Any good amp should be able to recreate the sine wave that goes in to it, but, how the amp handles the load makes a difference.
2 As a DIY'er how much that fancy lazer cut box costs.

 

[nevermind]

Hey! Are we talking about hamburgers or hi-fi technology....????

'till now i've had almost a dozen amplifiers.Not one of them sounds the same...And of course using the same CDP - Roksan DP1- and the same speakers - B&W matrix and allmost the same room and furniture and carpets and books and the same body,the same head (but i'm not sure) and i think the same ears,and i'm telling you...believe me they sound diferent.

 

[Fisherdude]

Hey! Are we talking about hamburgers or hi-fi technology....????

'till now i've had almost a dozen amplifiers.Not one of them sounds the same...And of course using the same CDP - Roksan DP1- and the same speakers - B&W matrix and allmost the same room and furniture and carpets and books and the same body,the same head (but i'm not sure) and i think the same ears,and i'm telling you...believe me they sound diferent.

A dozen integrated amplifiers, or a dozen power amplifiers?

I think there's pretty much agreement across the board that pre-amplifiers most certainly do make a difference, sometimes dramatic. If you've owned a dozen different integrated amplifiers, then you've been listening to a dozen different pre-amps, too.

In my previous post I did make the point that they need to have similar specifications (and topologies). Comparing a $99 KLH from Best Buy with a 250 w/ch push-pull amp with a 3 w/ch SET will most definitely yield audible differences.

I hope!

 

[rew15951]

I'v got a sony str-de-197, its just 2 or 3 years old. And I would bet anyone here a steak dinner that I can pick it out of all my old kenwood amps if I was blind folded and had ear plugs in one ear! Now to pick the kenwood 600 from a 9100, that might be harder to do. But I do think I can tell the difference between the 600 and the kenwood 7100, But thats because the 7100 is one of the most netural sounding amps I'v ever listened to. and the 600 has a warmer fuller sound. But were talking my amps, my speakers, my room, my music. change any of those things and who knows?

 

[nevermind]

Yeah,Fisherdude

i had power amps from Rotel,from Vincent,from Denon,from Nad (my favourits)even from the old Theta(tube monoblocks like black shoe boxes with GE 6550 NOS)-i still have those Theta,but only one are okay 'cause i have an "acident"with the other one.
...Of course you have to train ,to educate your ears.The same with wine,you have to educate your "palato" taste, to enjoy a good wine,or else all the wine tastes the same.
Ciao.
Have fun.

 

[Rickster]

amps do sound different

Hi again,

I will mention that both the amps in my story were integrated - so I was comparing combined preamp/amp to preamp/amp. The amps in this case were a Jolida 707a integrated 40-60 watt tube, 6L6 class, push pull and a similar powered Jadis Orchestra Reference (KT90 tubes) push pull integrated (which by the way has a purely passive preamp section) the KT90 circuit has enough gain to eliminate the gain usually provided by a preamp ) - without a doubt that (passive preamp) alone could explain the differences that I heard. (How they get there is not really my concern - as long as they get there)

Pure power amplifiers of similar design are definitely closer in sonic values than preamps - not sure why?? Some of the Tube Gurus around here might be able to shed light on said subject.?#@

This article has started a good discussion.

Rickster

 

[Jon S]

I have compared a Sony STR-V444ES 120wpc receiver and a 95wpc Marantz Pm-7200. The differences between the two is easily discerned. The Sony sounds flat, two dimensional. The Marantz has a much broader soundstage with "ambience". The Marantz also has a deeper bass range and greater depth. The differences are so noticeable, my wife refuses to use the Sony.

 

[tentoze]

They all sound exactly the same until you find a place to plug them in.

 

[Negotiableterms]

Processing

I guess I'm not convinced that the test is meaningful. I've owned a fair number of amps, and I've tried ABXing them and given up because I couldn't tell the difference in any kind of controlled test. On the other hand, if I just sit and listen to two amps of equal price, with no attempt at blinding myself, after a while, a nebulous "signature" of each amp forms in my head. I develop a clear preference for one amp over the other. I still can't tell them apart in a test, but I'd rather own one than the other. This phenomenon particularly pisses me off when the one I like looks like doodoo, while the other one is beautifully designed. To be honest with myself, that's the only way I know they don't sound alike; I'd want the better looking amp if they did.

So, how do you scientifically explain it? I've come to believe that the brain is doing some fancy processing that comes down to a "pleasure index". In this context, "pleasure" has something to do with not only sounding nice, but sounding real. Like when you get goosebumps. By this measure, inaccurate systems sound less pleasurable. As soon as we're trying to identify a sound, the pleasure index processor is overridden by the frantic attempt to identify. ABX testing is NOT pleasurable, it's stressful. Since I listen for pleasure, the amp that provides the most pleasure wins...especially if it's built like a tank with...
BIG BLUE METERS!!!!!

 

[Fisherdude]

I guess I'm not convinced that the test is meaningful. I've owned a fair number of amps, and I've tried ABXing them and given up because I couldn't tell the difference in any kind of controlled test. On the other hand, if I just sit and listen to two amps of equal price, with no attempt at blinding myself, after a while, a nebulous "signature" of each amp forms in my head. I develop a clear preference for one amp over the other. I still can't tell them apart in a test, but I'd rather own one than the other. This phenomenon particularly pisses me off when the one I like looks like doodoo, while the other one is beautifully designed. To be honest with myself, that's the only way I know they don't sound alike; I'd want the better looking amp if they did.

So, how do you scientifically explain it? I've come to believe that the brain is doing some fancy processing that comes down to a "pleasure index". In this context, "pleasure" has something to do with not only sounding nice, but sounding real. Like when you get goosebumps. By this measure, inaccurate systems sound less pleasurable. As soon as we're trying to identify a sound, the pleasure index processor is overridden by the frantic attempt to identify. ABX testing is NOT pleasurable, it's stressful. Since I listen for pleasure, the amp that provides the most pleasure wins...especially if it's built like a tank with...
BIG BLUE METERS!!!!!

Excellent!!

 

[nevermind]

Lights and Knobs = Tunning amps = Japanese Markting.
They were allways good in Markting a product.

Better spend the money in good condensators,op-amps and good wires,than in lights and knobbs.
Of course a Stripper its more attractive to the eye than a simple nice woman.

 

[OvenMaster]

I've heard Pioneer receivers, a Kenwood integrated, a Yamaha HT rig, a Technics receiver, and a Yamaha integrated, just in my own home. All had only the amplification swapped out at the time; the speakers and all other components stayed the same.

Each and every amplifier was immediately obvious to me as having a different sound. Either the bass was cleaner, or the treble was more detailed, or something, but I can honestly say "no", all amplifiers in my experience do not sound the same. This flies in the face of what I was told by my favorite stereo salesman way back when I was starting in stereo in the 70's. IMHO, he was wrong.

Tom

 

[MikE]

Believer

I do believe that amps can impact [impart a sound] the overall sound of a system. Here's my amp, and the reason I chose it...

MikE

http://www.audiokarma.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1283&size=big&password=&sort=1&cat=500

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1079&page=1&pp=15&highlight=moth+s45

 

[Rickster]

Amps Do Sound Different - Last Gasp

This is my last entry in to this fray - I promise.

First of all, knowing which amp you are listening to does not change the fact
that one sounds better than the other. The Pepsi Coke idea does not hold because that is a taste preference - one amp vs another is a definable difference based on agreed criteria, ie tighter bass, smoother highs etc.

Second. The various components in a system - (simplified)- source, amp, speakers carry variable weight in how your system sounds

Cd players are the least variable (my opinion) - a cheap $100 cd player is very close in sound to a $4000 unit ( to most listeners - also my opinion)

A decent amp (gain stage) is also close to an "OMFG" mega buck amp in any given power class.

The biggest variable comes with speakers - the other two catagories are purely electronic/laser - environmental issues place a much minor role than with speakers.

With that said, the gain stage can be broken into amp, preamp amd pre-pre amp (a phono stage if you will)

The fact that we separate them into these 3 components is

1. in our mind ,

2.the marketplace,

3. the designers of this equipment can focus on the specific tasks more eaisily if they break it down like that.

The reason I buy integrated amps is my choice based on the experience of matching amps, preamps and cables - my thought is that the engineers who design the integrated units have a better chance of getting that right than I do.

Back to the original question - do some amps sound better than others.

YES

what we usually refer to as an amp (no preamp involved ) - same power range, same room, same speakers, same source etc although probably the least variable in the sound reproduction chain of events, are still qualitatively better or worse -as small a difference as it may be - any difference that is detectable is either better or worse.

bye now

Rickster




marketplace

 

[Tullman]

Hey! Are we talking about hamburgers or hi-fi technology....????

'till now i've had almost a dozen amplifiers.Not one of them sounds the same...And of course using the same CDP - Roksan DP1- and the same speakers - B&W matrix and allmost the same room and furniture and carpets and books and the same body,the same head (but i'm not sure) and i think the same ears,and i'm telling you...believe me they sound diferent.

This pretty much sums it up for me. I am not a big believer in blind listening tests. When I try new amps in my system I am hearing what matches up best with what I've already got. I need time to listen to various recordings and actually get acclaimated with the new amp.

 

[Tullman]

I'v got a sony str-de-197, its just 2 or 3 years old. And I would bet anyone here a steak dinner that I can pick it out of all my old kenwood amps if I was blind folded and had ear plugs in one ear! Now to pick the kenwood 600 from a 9100, that might be harder to do. But I do think I can tell the difference between the 600 and the kenwood 7100, But thats because the 7100 is one of the most netural sounding amps I'v ever listened to. and the 600 has a warmer fuller sound. But were talking my amps, my speakers, my room, my music. change any of those things and who knows?

Right, you know what to look for when listening. If I were to compare an Alphe 1.2 to the CAT JL1s. I would know the amp that had better high frequency extention to be the CATs. I know this because I lived with these amps.

 

[sydsfloyd67]

Good stuff, BC. So this raises the likelyhood for me that it is the FM tuner that imparts character to vintage receivers. (We have good radio here.) -sf

 

[BrianB]

For me, the fact that this is even a debate at all settles the debate. If this many folks who are into this kind of thing can't agree on this, then my ears are never going to hear the difference. Shoot, I can't even hear that vinyl sounds better than CDs.

Hi Ed,

Having read your post, I'd like to send you a sympathy card. Can you please PM me your address?

Cheers,
Brian

 

[BrianB]

I firmly believe that the preamp and speakers have greater effects on the sound of your system than the amp. I am not claiming that all amps sound the same, but I definently question whether you could distinguish the amp through the colorations of the pre and especially the speakers used.

Hi Ray,

I tend to agree that the components on either side of a power amplifier typically have a greater impact on the musical presentation than the amp itself. And yes, different amps do sound different. But what's funny is that many folks consider the amp to be the "heart" of an audio system, and therefore spend a disproportionate amount of their system budget on this component...

Cheers,
Brian