ADS 1230 or ESS 1a
- Thread starter Squirrely
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Porkloin
Oscar Heil Groupie
Braun -vs- Heil
Although I still get a big grin every time I pull the throttle back on the Heils in the living room, I'd give the edge in vocals to that beautiful midrange driver in the 1230's. The brass and percussion from my AMT3s are 3-D, even from a CD, but any given group's front man seems to take a few steps back.
Not to wear out that wienie "to each his own" reply, but if you're particular about the human voice, you may want to take the time to do some serious listening and develop your own answer before plunking down the cash.
Although I still get a big grin every time I pull the throttle back on the Heils in the living room, I'd give the edge in vocals to that beautiful midrange driver in the 1230's. The brass and percussion from my AMT3s are 3-D, even from a CD, but any given group's front man seems to take a few steps back.
Not to wear out that wienie "to each his own" reply, but if you're particular about the human voice, you may want to take the time to do some serious listening and develop your own answer before plunking down the cash.
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butch4695
Super Member
I have had both . The 1230`s live with me and the ESS`s are with my son . I listen to the 1230`s all the time and when I want to hear the ESS`s they are about 7 miles away . He powers the ESS`s with a Sansui 9090 . Not db . I power the 1230`s with a Toshiba SA-7150 . They both sound great . But I kept the 1230`s .
The ADSs are more refined and better tuned out of the factory, especially for vocal. But if you're a tweaker and like tuning and modding your speakers, you can get the ESSs to become a very fine speaker and they can over take just about every other (ordinary) speaker of it's size out there.
Did you ever figure out your imbalance with your AMT3's?
This obviously could be part of the problem.
You won't realize the best they can do without redoing the crossovers.
The AMT3's had a high pleat diaphragm that was unique to the model.
If you fry one-you will probably have to replace both, as the levels won't match.
I find the tonality correct on both vocal, piano, etc.
The wide image will present a different picture then a dome/cone driver.
You could try a Eminence Alpha 6A in place of the stock driver.
I played with a few mids, and gravitated back to the stock 8-ohm mid.
Beware-if you have the 3coil crossover-don't use a 4ohm mid.
The early 4 coils used a 4ohm mid-but it will throw your crossover point way off in the 3 coil setup.
I managed to snag a pair of O.E. mids, that were just refoamed of E-Pay.
He had a set of O.E. woofers and crossovers as well.
The crossover were too high IMHO.
I now have 3 complete sets of the 3 coil crossovers and one of the 4 coils.
And 2 sets of AMT3's.
I prefer the sound of the 3 coil setup.
The ADS are nice speakers-but not in the same league as a properly refurbished set of AMT3's-or 1's for that matter, driven with the proper electronics IMHO.
The ADS can't even begin to do the disappearing act-as you are limited to just listening to them as speakers. Nothing wrong with that, but it is what it is.
Properly set up, refurbed and driven, the ESS will disappear and let you concentrate on the music.
The ability to disappear and just play music is what puts the ESS in a different league-IMHO of course.
I have found very few speakers over the years that do the disappearing well, or as well as the AMT3's/1's.
At least for this old timer-that's why I was drawn to ESS speakers years ago-the sheer joy of music, and not so much the equipment....
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Porkloin
Oscar Heil Groupie
AMT3 Imbalance Woes
Room placement reduced the effect, but it's still there.
Caps and resistors are on their way from Parts express. Hopefully, the upgrade to better capacitors (I'm not sure if the ones in there right now are original or not) will help with vocals, but I'm not counting on it. I'd bet one of the current crop of fast full range drivers may be a better match for the great Heil, but that would sort of null the crossover work I guess.
Maybe I should move forward with my original plan for a modified AMT1 and borrow the Heils from my AMT3's. I discovered that I could tweak my table saw to get the2 degree angle cuts on the pyramid.
Room placement reduced the effect, but it's still there.
Caps and resistors are on their way from Parts express. Hopefully, the upgrade to better capacitors (I'm not sure if the ones in there right now are original or not) will help with vocals, but I'm not counting on it. I'd bet one of the current crop of fast full range drivers may be a better match for the great Heil, but that would sort of null the crossover work I guess.
Maybe I should move forward with my original plan for a modified AMT1 and borrow the Heils from my AMT3's. I discovered that I could tweak my table saw to get the2 degree angle cuts on the pyramid.
Attachments
The crossover region between the Heil and midbass driver is critical.
Another trick to improve midbass is to install foam blocks on each side of the Heil on the front.
This prevents out of phase lower midrange/midbass frequencies from wrapping around the Heil housing and canceling each other out.
The higher frequencies aren't effected by this.
I find piano and vocals spot on, as well as tonality/timing, along with their sheer dynamics and sound staging.
You also have to take into account-they are a 40 year old design, and speaker designing, and driver technology has evolved since then.
In part why I modded mine, mainly dealing with the woofers/subs. Moves them up a few notches-no complaints of lean bass here.
IMHO they still compete (stock) well with modern speakers that try to achieve the same type of aspirations.
Most of their short comings can be corrected modern materials/methods, and some patience....
If I was to buy new-I would buy what I consider the modern day interpretation of the ESS AMT3-the Golden Ear Triton 2 Towers.
But of course your looking $3k for the pair (a bargain IMHO).
For less then half that (and spread out over time), I'm sitting on 2 pair of modded AMT3's-while they don't have powered subs-now have clean musical bass that can keep up with the Great Heil.
Plus I can easily swap current/or old midbass drivers and have some fun, and help others out missing pieces to their AMT3', or who wish to mod as well.
Plus buying your way in is no fun-been there-done that.
Much better to take a classic design, and actually improve and make it better.....part of the audio hobby for this cat.....
Another trick to improve midbass is to install foam blocks on each side of the Heil on the front.
This prevents out of phase lower midrange/midbass frequencies from wrapping around the Heil housing and canceling each other out.
The higher frequencies aren't effected by this.
I find piano and vocals spot on, as well as tonality/timing, along with their sheer dynamics and sound staging.
You also have to take into account-they are a 40 year old design, and speaker designing, and driver technology has evolved since then.
In part why I modded mine, mainly dealing with the woofers/subs. Moves them up a few notches-no complaints of lean bass here.
IMHO they still compete (stock) well with modern speakers that try to achieve the same type of aspirations.
Most of their short comings can be corrected modern materials/methods, and some patience....
If I was to buy new-I would buy what I consider the modern day interpretation of the ESS AMT3-the Golden Ear Triton 2 Towers.
But of course your looking $3k for the pair (a bargain IMHO).
For less then half that (and spread out over time), I'm sitting on 2 pair of modded AMT3's-while they don't have powered subs-now have clean musical bass that can keep up with the Great Heil.
Plus I can easily swap current/or old midbass drivers and have some fun, and help others out missing pieces to their AMT3', or who wish to mod as well.
Plus buying your way in is no fun-been there-done that.
Much better to take a classic design, and actually improve and make it better.....part of the audio hobby for this cat.....
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Thanks for getting back to me Gizzman. I received your PM response but there was no writing. I appreciate all this good info from everyone.
I am a lucky guy. If I didn’t say so, I have 2 pair of 1230’s and I am letting go of only one pair. My wife would not let me sell both pairs because she loves the ADS for how it looks and sounds. I too love the quality of female vocals from the mid and high drivers in the ADS. These are keepers in my world. One of the things I have come to appreciate most when listening is sound stage. When the speaker “disappears” as you stated I loose my sense of self and feel like I am floating in the music. I have heard some ribbon tweeters that are very exacting and detailed, but they can sound harsh. I am hoping the heil is softer than the ribbons or horn tweeters. This soft top is where the ADS tweeters shine. You mention room treatment and I have been thinking about this allot. My 1230’s have plenty of room to breath. The ESS will have that as well but the 1230’s have no rear firing components. The ESS with the passive and the heil depend on the wall behind them to sound right. Right now, behind my 1230’s the wall has no sheet rock. Instead it is a wood frame with insulation and a tarp cover. There is no bounce from the wall. The ADS love this and deliver clean detailed music. I am thinking that I might try making a sound board to put behind the ESS speakers. I may build a form for a concrete pore and make a foot with iron placements. I can bolt ¾ “ plywood to the iron and have a sound board for the speaker to reflect off of. If the concept works I might experiment with different woods.
I am a lucky guy. If I didn’t say so, I have 2 pair of 1230’s and I am letting go of only one pair. My wife would not let me sell both pairs because she loves the ADS for how it looks and sounds. I too love the quality of female vocals from the mid and high drivers in the ADS. These are keepers in my world. One of the things I have come to appreciate most when listening is sound stage. When the speaker “disappears” as you stated I loose my sense of self and feel like I am floating in the music. I have heard some ribbon tweeters that are very exacting and detailed, but they can sound harsh. I am hoping the heil is softer than the ribbons or horn tweeters. This soft top is where the ADS tweeters shine. You mention room treatment and I have been thinking about this allot. My 1230’s have plenty of room to breath. The ESS will have that as well but the 1230’s have no rear firing components. The ESS with the passive and the heil depend on the wall behind them to sound right. Right now, behind my 1230’s the wall has no sheet rock. Instead it is a wood frame with insulation and a tarp cover. There is no bounce from the wall. The ADS love this and deliver clean detailed music. I am thinking that I might try making a sound board to put behind the ESS speakers. I may build a form for a concrete pore and make a foot with iron placements. I can bolt ¾ “ plywood to the iron and have a sound board for the speaker to reflect off of. If the concept works I might experiment with different woods.
I'm not sure how a sound board would work.
I'm doubting it would help IMHO, intentionally redirecting the in phase rear output sounds like a bad idea.
All you really have to do is move them out a couple of feet from the back wall and you should be good.
I can scan a copy of the owners manual if you like.
Having large cabinets on either side can effect the bass response, like any other speaker.
Don't over think it too much, they really aren't that complicated to set up.
Let the speakers work as they were designed (and not as they weren't) and you should be good-spend time enjoying the music...
You can mess around with room treatments if that suits you.
In my experience room treatments seem to work with certain types of music with specific concentrations-bass-mids-etc, but then not so much with others.
I don't have enough time to change things with different program material...
If you have your listening room set up in general properly-should be good enough.
General guidelines is all you really need.
Like the AMT3, you can improve the lower mids by installing foam wings on each side of the Heil housing to prevent those frequencies from wrapping around and causing cancellation.
Higher frequencies from the Heil don't have this problem.
Being a high definition speaker, what you put in, is what you get out. They aren't going to mask harsh high frequency program material.
They will also point out weakness in your system, something to be aware of.
I have good luck using H/K amplification, as they drive these speaker very well-top to bottom.
Good to have speakers to rotate in and out of the system.
That's why I don't get hung up on room treatment for specific speakers etc.
If you have the room set up right to begin with, you should be fine.
I'm doubting it would help IMHO, intentionally redirecting the in phase rear output sounds like a bad idea.
All you really have to do is move them out a couple of feet from the back wall and you should be good.
I can scan a copy of the owners manual if you like.
Having large cabinets on either side can effect the bass response, like any other speaker.
Don't over think it too much, they really aren't that complicated to set up.
Let the speakers work as they were designed (and not as they weren't) and you should be good-spend time enjoying the music...
You can mess around with room treatments if that suits you.
In my experience room treatments seem to work with certain types of music with specific concentrations-bass-mids-etc, but then not so much with others.
I don't have enough time to change things with different program material...
If you have your listening room set up in general properly-should be good enough.
General guidelines is all you really need.
Like the AMT3, you can improve the lower mids by installing foam wings on each side of the Heil housing to prevent those frequencies from wrapping around and causing cancellation.
Higher frequencies from the Heil don't have this problem.
Being a high definition speaker, what you put in, is what you get out. They aren't going to mask harsh high frequency program material.
They will also point out weakness in your system, something to be aware of.
I have good luck using H/K amplification, as they drive these speaker very well-top to bottom.
Good to have speakers to rotate in and out of the system.
That's why I don't get hung up on room treatment for specific speakers etc.
If you have the room set up right to begin with, you should be fine.
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Thanks Automojo,
Yes, I would love to have a copy of the owner’s manual. Thank you. I thought the rear passive and heil were designed to reflect off a wall. I guess I will find out how they preform before messing with anything in room treatment. My ADS are very happy with the room and sound great. I will do as you suggest and give them plenty of room to breath. I am unclear of the foam wings you describe. Do you have a pic?
Yes, I would love to have a copy of the owner’s manual. Thank you. I thought the rear passive and heil were designed to reflect off a wall. I guess I will find out how they preform before messing with anything in room treatment. My ADS are very happy with the room and sound great. I will do as you suggest and give them plenty of room to breath. I am unclear of the foam wings you describe. Do you have a pic?
Here is a picture of the foam blocks.
At first I blocked the left and right side grill cloth "windows" of the AMT3's-but this killed a lot of the air-and they did not contribute to any cancellation, as the lower mids were wrapping around the Heil housing exclusively and not farther out.
So I removed them and left the front foam blocks.
I later switched to Auralex-as I had some left and contributed to a smoother cosmetic look.
P.E. foam will work great, and is inexpensive.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=4227165&postcount=22
Interesting article on the Heil, and partially explains the wrapping effect.
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/s...vailable-for-us-diy-ers&p=1523140#post1523140
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Thanks for the pics Automojo. The foam works nicely with the AMT 3. The AMT 1a has no cabinetry to hold the foam. I could experiment by just placing the foam and if it sounds better I will have to figure out how to hold the foam in place. The only other thing that comes to mind is rubber band at the top and bottom going around the tweeter.
Yep I know.
You could also experiment with wood or plastic wings.
If you have the tops on a rubber band and foam would work.
The changes are subtle, but worth while IMHO.
Still trying to locate the manual-as I misplaced it.
Regardless, I'm thinking you will figure it out-good listening!
I’ll do some experimentation with foam. Thanks for the tip.
A couple of other things I should mention: I spoke with Rick at ESS about the changes that exist between the AMT 1a and the limited edition. I wanted information to bring the 1a up to the performance of the limited. He mentioned changes to the 12” woofer and that the newer speaker has a coned passive. I spoke about the sensitivity rating discrepancy and the audible range from the two speakers. This gets confusing because when I look up specifications for the AMT 1a I have only found info on the book shelf version. The bookshelf 1a only goes down to 50hz and has a sensitivity rating of 82db. The limited Edition speaker is about 92 db and goes a lot deep with base. I expect the frequency range of the bookshelf speaker is not the same as the (tower?) 1a. I will be curious to know what the frequency response is of the speakers I am looking at and what their sensitivity rating is. Will it be worth considering replacing the woofer and passive as an upgrade?
Also, Rick mentioned to improve the sound from the older speaker, move the Heil tweeter back 1 ¼“ to time align the woofer with the tweeter. I would be very reluctant to drill new bolt holes in the cabinet to remount the tweeter but I might experiment moving the Heil forward and back with it just sitting on the base cabinet to see if I can hear a difference.
A couple of other things I should mention: I spoke with Rick at ESS about the changes that exist between the AMT 1a and the limited edition. I wanted information to bring the 1a up to the performance of the limited. He mentioned changes to the 12” woofer and that the newer speaker has a coned passive. I spoke about the sensitivity rating discrepancy and the audible range from the two speakers. This gets confusing because when I look up specifications for the AMT 1a I have only found info on the book shelf version. The bookshelf 1a only goes down to 50hz and has a sensitivity rating of 82db. The limited Edition speaker is about 92 db and goes a lot deep with base. I expect the frequency range of the bookshelf speaker is not the same as the (tower?) 1a. I will be curious to know what the frequency response is of the speakers I am looking at and what their sensitivity rating is. Will it be worth considering replacing the woofer and passive as an upgrade?
Also, Rick mentioned to improve the sound from the older speaker, move the Heil tweeter back 1 ¼“ to time align the woofer with the tweeter. I would be very reluctant to drill new bolt holes in the cabinet to remount the tweeter but I might experiment moving the Heil forward and back with it just sitting on the base cabinet to see if I can hear a difference.
Patching my last post
I expect the frequency range of the bookshelf speaker is not the same as the (tower?) 1a because of the smaller enclosure but it could be because of the woofer and the passive. The discrepancy of sensitivity could be from the newer driver or possibly from a redesign of the crossover.
I expect the frequency range of the bookshelf speaker is not the same as the (tower?) 1a because of the smaller enclosure but it could be because of the woofer and the passive. The discrepancy of sensitivity could be from the newer driver or possibly from a redesign of the crossover.
Found it! Almost. The 1a's I am looking at have 12" woof
Specifications
Type: 2 way, 2 driver loudspeaker system
Frequency Response: 45Hz to 24kHz
Power Handling: 350W
Recommended Amplifier: 20W (minimum)
Crossover Frequency: 700Hz
Impedance: 4Ω
Bass: 10" cone
Tweeter: heil air motion transformer
Enclosure: ported
Finish: walnut veneer, hand oiled and rubbed
Dimensions: 31 x 14.25 x 14.25 inches
Specifications
Type: 2 way, 2 driver loudspeaker system
Frequency Response: 45Hz to 24kHz
Power Handling: 350W
Recommended Amplifier: 20W (minimum)
Crossover Frequency: 700Hz
Impedance: 4Ω
Bass: 10" cone
Tweeter: heil air motion transformer
Enclosure: ported
Finish: walnut veneer, hand oiled and rubbed
Dimensions: 31 x 14.25 x 14.25 inches
Personally I would stick with the stock woofer.
You aren't going to see a upgrade using the newer woofer.
If yours is round-you would have to modify as well.
I would not get to hung up on the specs.
The stock woofer should have plenty/deep bass in this model.
The passive slab however could be upgraded to a cone.
Remember, as with the slab, and the cones, these need to be tuned to the specific enclosure with weights.
I would first trying tuning your slab, as ESS did not tune all of these, and some were replaced without the tuning discs/weights reinstalled.
It will make a difference.
Yes the smaller book shelf won't have the same bass-room gain will augment this however into the 40's.
I think it runs a 10" woofer? Can't recall.
Some of these had Bextrine cones-some of them had paper-I can't recall when they started using the Bextrine.
Personally I prefer the sound of paper, but if the 1a's have Be trine cones, I personally would not switch them to go paper, as the bass response with this model is great-why mess with it?
The AMT3's where another story for me, and other-but they are 2 completely different models.
You aren't going to see a upgrade using the newer woofer.
If yours is round-you would have to modify as well.
I would not get to hung up on the specs.
The stock woofer should have plenty/deep bass in this model.
The passive slab however could be upgraded to a cone.
Remember, as with the slab, and the cones, these need to be tuned to the specific enclosure with weights.
I would first trying tuning your slab, as ESS did not tune all of these, and some were replaced without the tuning discs/weights reinstalled.
It will make a difference.
Yes the smaller book shelf won't have the same bass-room gain will augment this however into the 40's.
I think it runs a 10" woofer? Can't recall.
Some of these had Bextrine cones-some of them had paper-I can't recall when they started using the Bextrine.
Personally I prefer the sound of paper, but if the 1a's have Be trine cones, I personally would not switch them to go paper, as the bass response with this model is great-why mess with it?
The AMT3's where another story for me, and other-but they are 2 completely different models.
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strat10
Well-Known Member
I will probably get Flamed for saying this but about 3 years ago a friend lent me a pair of ESS 1A speakers for an audition I gave them back to him the following day.I loved the heil tweeters that were selling alone for over $400.00 but to my ears they just didn't sound all that great.
Hi Strat,
Not a flamethrower. You are giving me the benefit of your experience and I thank you for that. I have read far more positive reviews than negative ones so I am interested in the 1a’s. Your input brings questions to my mind. If you feel like answering; what was your complaint with the sound of them? What speakers are your ears used to hearing? What amplification did you use? What was the room treatment like in terms of hard or soft? What size room where you in? How much room was behind the speakers and to the sides of the speakers? Where they coming out of a corner or did they reflect off of a flat wall? What was the condition of the speakers? Had the crossovers been rebuilt?
Thanks for you help
Not a flamethrower. You are giving me the benefit of your experience and I thank you for that. I have read far more positive reviews than negative ones so I am interested in the 1a’s. Your input brings questions to my mind. If you feel like answering; what was your complaint with the sound of them? What speakers are your ears used to hearing? What amplification did you use? What was the room treatment like in terms of hard or soft? What size room where you in? How much room was behind the speakers and to the sides of the speakers? Where they coming out of a corner or did they reflect off of a flat wall? What was the condition of the speakers? Had the crossovers been rebuilt?
Thanks for you help
