ADS 1230 or ESS 1a

[strat10]

Thanks for not Flaming me, To me they were bass shy and very bright sounding,at that time I had Infinity rs2.5 and Jbl 4310,4311, 4312,4430, klipsch Chorus,and KG4 and ADS L710 speakers which wouldn't compare with some of the others because of their size. I was running a Mcintosh Mx110 pre-amp and a Mcintosh 2205 power amp,Toshiba sa7150 receiver,Marantz 2285b receiver and a Marantz 2325 receiver.The room was carpeted walls were flat 2ft from the wall not in the corners the speakers were in excellent condition I could have had them for a week. Remember everyone hears things differently I have a friend and when I put on my best stuff no reaction I think he couldn't hear the difference from my system and a transistor radio which would probably save him a lot of money if he was into our hobby.

 

[Squirrely]

Thanks for the info Strat. Your friend is a lucky man for sure. As you said, everyone's ear is different. I may have the opportunity to retain the speakers I was selling to finance the ESS. If I can do that I will bring them home and let them compete for position in my rig.

 

[strat10]

Give the 1230's a chance it could be something farther up the stream in your system if If it was my choice it would be the ADS.

 

[Squirrely]

I have 2 pair of ADS 1230’s. I will be keeping at least one pair. I am experimenting around by trying ESS. If I don’t try them out I will never know.

 

[automojo]

To tune the passive you have to know the fs of the O.E. passive.
Perhaps ESS has the info.
Otherwise it require a signal generator, and calibrated mike.
Unless someone knows a short cut.
If the disc have weights on them, you are probably ok.
The AMT1a's have control to adjust the brightness and mids.
Personally never heard of a lack of bass/brightness for this model, but perhaps is was more of a system mismatch.
RonC runs more then a few ESS with Mcintosh equipment with good luck.
If the speakers had not been gone through, recapped, resealed etc, it's hard to make a rational judgment on them.
Also, you really have to live with any set of speakers more then 3 days to get a handle on what going on, and make any sort of rational judgment/reviews on them-even if you like them right off the bat, or not. IMHO of course. And IMHO this is where a lot of bias and misinformation comes from on a lot of audi products.
Not flaming here-just look at the information that was provided. All information though is helpful-if you can read through it....
They are high definition speakers-so it's hard to really compare them with ADS etc. A different animal, as has been mentioned.
The last pair of pyramids I heard ended up having one of the woofers (recently refoamed) out of phase. Pretty easy, because of the lack of bass.
ESS speakers probably age faster then others, and this also need to be taken into account.
Some were just not assembled the best-cold solder joints cabinet issues etc.
Here was the mid-3way mods I was talking about.
Never heard of the DC Gold company-but the other pic uses a Aplha 6A
https://www.dcgold.com/home-audio/ess-amt-mod/

 

[audiomagnate]

I love the Heil tweeter above 4K or so but below that the 1a is not in the same league as your 1230's. I used 1530s in my main system for over two years, and own a pair of AMT 1's, so I think I'm qualified to comment.

 

[Squirrely]

Thanks for your input Audiomagnate. The 1530’s don’t come around often. I have never heard or seen a pair. I have listened to 2030’s though. I took my ad down from Craigslist and have found a way to finance the ESS without giving up a pair of 1230’s. I will listen to them for a while, experiment with placement and allow my ear to adjust to them for a while. As Audiomojo stated, I will need time with them to see if there is a synergy with them in my system. I am very pleased with my 1230’s though so it will be interesting to see how my ear adjusts. The sticky domes are smooth and detailed. I imagine the Heil will bring forward even more detail but it could sound hard to my ear at first. Running tube amps might be an advantage and I may find that the down side to CD’s may be in my face with the Heil. I listen to LP’s CD’s and tape so I will gravitate to the speaker that works with all these formats. Again, tube amps may work very well with the Heil. We’ll see.

 

[Squirrely]

Thanks for the link Audiomojo. The DC gold looks good in the picture and I like the idea. It is kind of like your AMT 3’s in that there is a cone driver filling the midrange and limiting the demands for the Heil to cover upper mid. What I don’t get though from reading their website is that the speaker is not intended to be exposed to “salt water on the back side”? They also say there is no spider. I am skeptical but curious enough to give them a call when I have a chance.

 

[automojo]

Thanks for the link Audiomojo. The DC gold looks good in the picture and I like the idea. It is kind of like your AMT 3’s in that there is a cone driver filling the midrange and limiting the demands for the Heil to cover upper mid. What I don’t get though from reading their website is that the speaker is not intended to be exposed to “salt water on the back side”? They also say there is no spider. I am skeptical but curious enough to give them a call when I have a chance.

Yeah, A bit weird.
Makes me wonder, as 6x9's are used in boats.
I just happened to run across the site.
Actually adding a Eminence Alpha 6a would be fairly straight forward.
A small heavily damped enclosure.
You would of course have to build a three way crossover.
Personally I'm a bit skeptical on the comments so far on the lack of bass response, as that's never been a issue with the AMT1's with the 12" woofers and passive, nor my direct experience, or others I know have had good experience with them, as well as other ESS Heil models.
The early AMT1's with a single ported 10" woofer-yes
Lower midrange in the crossover region-yes-bass no.
That was the reason in designing the AMT3's-integrating a larger woofer to the Heil.
They choose to have a "faster", somewhat lighter bass response in these models-and why some people stuck with the AMT1's because they preferred the lower fuller bass.
Sealed vs BR/passive is a matter of taste, and might have to do with some of the comments-but it's hard to say, as little supporting info was offered.
You could tighten up the bass response with the coned passive.
The ESS model should be tuned to the same enclosure size
Also making sure the internal damping material is not clumped, or interfering with the passive is important-as well as making sure someone didn't decide to remove it.
I had the same passive slab as well on a pair of 3 way ESS PS 1220's for years-that used the same woofer as the AMT1's, and there was no lack of bass with those woofers.
The slab sort of fluttered, as slabs do, but it seemed to do the job well.
When I first bought them back in the mid '86 playing my first cd back the Floyd's Learning to Fly, the bass literally rattled a picture off the wall in that old house I lived in.
Amazing set of speakers I regret selling for a pair of KG 5.5's.......
I have had the same experience with the 12"/passive AMT1's, along with the Monitors I recapped for a old friend. These will rattle you teeth with clean bass when the program material has it.
By the way-the Great Heils don't have to be crossed over @ 4k to sound good.
You are missing (and more importantly misunderstanding) a good part of what they can do, and do well. They aren't just tweeters.

 

[phatster]

. They aren't just tweeters. AMEN!

 

[Squirrely]

The time is drawing near. I am going to make a run for them on Friday or Saturday. I can’t wait. I believe these are in very good shape. The crossovers where recently rebuilt by ESS. The woofer and passive have new surrounds. Right now I’m listening to Dr. John on my ADS speakers and wondering just how these ESS 1a’s will compare. I have a difficult time thinking they will be better. In fact I very much doubt they will be better. I expect them to be different and equally pleasing. The ADS have a very smooth refined sound. They are never fatiguing. I anticipate the ESS may be somewhat of a wild animal ready to rock. When these speakers come home I will likely “Accentuate the positive eliminate the negative latch on to the affirmative and don’t mess with Mr. In between” (Mack Rebannak). This means that for a time I will not be able to give an unbiased assessment. I will likely have my rose colored glasses on. Between now and Friday I will “walk on gilded splinters”. Whatever that means! Does anyone know what Dr. John is talking about in the song Gilded Splinters. He’s speaking an American foreign language I think. Cool song though.

 

[automojo]

I have ADS 1230's and I am thinking of selling to buy some ESS 1a's. Does anyone have experience listening to both? I will be using tube amps: Dynaco ST-70, Eico hf-87 or Heathkit aa40. Any input would be most appreciated.
Thanks

No one has asked this-or I missed it-sorry.....
You seem to like the ADS 1230's so well (and worried about letting go of the 2nd pair)-why are you looking at the Heils?
Not enough life? Musicality? Like listening to boxes? Another speaker in the rotation?
Curious......as you have seemed to state you won't like them as well as the ADS. And that your (more) comfortable with their voicing/sound...so I'm wondering what the point of the thread is. I must have missed something.
You really never stated why-as that would seem to be a important factor.
Maybe just bored?
Have you ever tried a set of Magnepans?
By they way-looking at you setup, not sure if the Dynaco will have enough low end drive- to fully appreciate the AMT1's-but should be interesting.
I use a min of 175 wpc, on one pair of 3's, and 350 wpc on the other set.
Makes a world of difference-they are completely different speakers above 100 wpc.
Power does make a difference with ESS speakers, and they seem to prefer solid state, in my experience.
I found the same to be true with my former Klipsch KG 5.5's, Chorus, Quartet-power and control of the low end is key.
They sound like completely different speakers-and just open up.
Some speakers like my (sealed) DLK 1 .5's are just the opposite, and sound great with a max of 100wpc, beyond that they are easily over driven.
Marginal damping and power aren't the best, in my experience, especially with BR/Passive designs.
One exception I have run across is the Citation V-has plenty of low end drive for a tube amp.
Speaker efficiency IMHO means a speaker may play loud with lower power input-but that does not mean it will sound good-even at lower volumes.
The exception seems to be active crossovers.
Maybe your better of trying to find a different amp to better power/control your ADS, and find out what they can really do..........

 

[Squirrely]

I was concerned my last posting may be misunderstood. I love my ADS speakers and will likely keep one pair for life. I am looking at a different speaker to rotate in and out of my system. I am also setting up 2 listening areas. My prior post may have been misleading. I said I doubt I will like ESS better. I am hoping to love them as I love my ADS 1230’s. I expect the ESS to provide a different musical experience. An analogy could be luxury cars and sports or muscle cars. They are different rides. For me, the point of the thread is to try to get a sense of what differences I might experience between the two speakers and to gather any info I can learn about ESS 1a’s. For me, this thread has been extremely helpful. Two things I am reflecting on are the potential of the dampening material inside the enclosure interfering with the function of the passive and importance of having a well-sealed enclosure for the passive to function properly. Making adjustments to the weights on the passive to tune of the speaker is another thing I was unaware of. I will not be able to tune the speaker because I don’t have the equipment you describe but I can look to see that the weights are in place and secure. Thanks for all your help.

 

[automojo]

I was concerned my last posting may be misunderstood. I love my ADS speakers and will likely keep one pair for life. I am looking at a different speaker to rotate in and out of my system. I am also setting up 2 listening areas. My prior post may have been misleading. I said I doubt I will like ESS better. I am hoping to love them as I love my ADS 1230’s. I expect the ESS to provide a different musical experience. An analogy could be luxury cars and sports or muscle cars. They are different rides. For me, the point of the thread is to try to get a sense of what differences I might experience between the two speakers and to gather any info I can learn about ESS 1a’s. For me, this thread has been extremely helpful. Two things I am reflecting on are the potential of the dampening material inside the enclosure interfering with the function of the passive and importance of having a well-sealed enclosure for the passive to function properly. Making adjustments to the weights on the passive to tune of the speaker is another thing I was unaware of. I will not be able to tune the speaker because I don’t have the equipment you describe but I can look to see that the weights are in place and secure. Thanks for all your help.

Thanks. I figured this was case, but don't like assuming.
I would just listen, and go from there.
Each potential short coming, in reality is often times system or room driven.
Don't what the car before the horse-so to speak.
Have fun!

 

[GordonW]

Having owned both (ADS L1230 and ESS AMT1), I'd have to say the ADS is better balanced. The AMT1 has a hard time with integration between the woofer and tweeter- it's like the tweeter struggles going low enough to meet the woofer, and the woofer struggles going high enough to meet the tweeter.

Now, if you can find a pair of ESS AMT3- those are better than either above. More authority on dynamics than either of the above, and as a 3-way design, smoother blend between drivers. None of the drivers are being asked to perform out of their optimum performance regions. They just sound "effortless" on dynamics, as a result.

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[virii01]

If you stick with the 1230s and want to change it up, find a C2000 or similar active crossover, a second amp and flip the bi-amp switch on the back of them

I loved my 1230s before but after going that route they're at the next level.

 

[Squirrely]

Thanks again Audiomojo,
I am going to have a blast with the 1a’s. I spoke to the seller on the phone about an hour ago so we are on! I have heard that those who have moved up from 1a’s to ESS 3’s are very happy with the improvements. The 1a’s may float through my system and be replaced by 3’s; who knows. I am going to enjoy getting to know the potential of the great Heil tweeter. Given our earlier discussion I should say tweeter (+).

Virii01 I hear you. I had an opportunity to buy the C2000 crossover once. I was talked out of it. Some say if the 1230’s have enough good power the crossover doesn’t make much difference. I am kicking myself for not picking up the crossover when I had the chance. They don’t come around often. I am going to keep a pair of 1230’s and would be interested to learn what crossover can be used in place of the C2000. Do you have any suggestions? I would love to experiment with 2 Dynaco ST-70’s driving my ADS speakers.

 

[automojo]

Gorden hit it spot on with the AMT3's.
The ESS 3-way PS1220's are the same as well.
That "effortless" quality is what is why I own 2 pair.
Like listening to music in black and white vs Kodachrome.
You get a accurate image, but little life.
Probably why I ended up modding my DLK2's (a very "accurate speaker"), with a dome tweet.
They needed a little life in the high end dept.

 

[virii01]

Virii01 I hear you. I had an opportunity to buy the C2000 crossover once. I was talked out of it. Some say if the 1230’s have enough good power the crossover doesn’t make much difference. I am kicking myself for not picking up the crossover when I had the chance. They don’t come around often. I am going to keep a pair of 1230’s and would be interested to learn what crossover can be used in place of the C2000. Do you have any suggestions? I would love to experiment with 2 Dynaco ST-70’s driving my ADS speakers.

Prior to finding a C2000 that was somewhat reasonable in price I was leaning towards this:
http://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4

Pretty much infinitely customizable with the ability to do some neat room correction and time delay as well.

The C2000 does some neat stuff in terms of bass extension and phase correction (I'd have to reference the manual for more details) that goes beyond just replacing a passive crossover with a manual one. :thmbsp:

 

[Squirrely]

ESS made a crossover unit called the 3-C. Has anyone heard of it? I wonder if it was designed to be used with the 1a's or the early electrostatic speakers. I think a call to ESS In california is in order. I'll post what I learn.