Anti-skate setting question

[radiokom]

But you're right that the blank disc method also has nothing to do with setting proper AS force.

Maybe, but blank disc is necessary for initial setting. Then you can start to experiment.
With Ortofon recommendation, for example on headphones:

"A simple recommendation for a rather precise bias: if you hear distortion in say right channel when using recommended tracking force, increase the bias scale and vice versa. This is for normal cartridge use. But when working like the DJ´s, where the record is turned forwards and backwards, bias has to be reduced otherwise stylus will easily jump in the groove."

Or test record.

But if better shape the stylus you can better hear any imperfection. So with VDH 1 I decided linear tracking arm is necessary. So I mounted ET 2.5. on Dragon. No more anti skating problem

 

[mr_petit]

Maybe, but blank disc is necessary for initial setting. Then you can start to experiment.

The initial setting is the dial on the AS system, setting it corresponding to the VTF.
If you hear distortion in 1 channel at that point, you have bigger problems than a wrong AS setting.

Setting the AS with a blank test record or a test record with modulated track will both result in an AS setting that is way more off than the AS on the dial unless the AS mechanism is completely FUBAR.

 

[jrtrent]

. . . I read again and again on the forums people saying no antiskate or 0.5 and I see day after day the uneven wear this creates. Almost never is uneven wear the other way.

This is a really interesting observation. Apparently Sound Smith's customers had it the other way around:

"Usually, most folks use far too much antiskating, as evidenced by the thousands of cartridges I have rebuilt over the last 40+ years – as evidenced by observation of the outer edge (right channel) of the diamond to be worn far more than the inner, or left channel."

Do you think that what you're seeing might be a recent development, a reflection of the advice you're seeing to use no or very little antiskate?

Sumiko offered the rule of thumb to set antiskate at about 2/3 of the value recommended by the scale on your turntable. At least on a Rega arm I had, that value was exactly the same as what I got using the Frank Schroder watch-the-arm-in-the-run-out-groove method that Sound Smith promotes. Sonically, the minimum antiskate setting and the 2/3 setting both sounded equally good, and better than matching numbers on the vtf and anti skate adjusters.

 

[Fishead]

watch-the-arm-in-the-run-out-groove method that Sound Smith promotes

OK, I'm going to have to ask for some help here because try as I might, I was NEVER able to get this method to work for me! First, try to drop the stylus on a blank area in the run-out groove region.....go ahead, just try it!! I did, and there was never more than a split second before the groove caught the stylus so observations were severely limited and hardly useful in the way of seeing the movement of the thing one way or another. Then, try to repeat that test in an effort to establish some kind of reliability in terms of what you saw, or thought you saw.....just wasn't happenin' for me amigos. And try, and try, and try again I did just like a good, stubborn Kraut would be expected to do.....LOL!

Then, the lightbulb came on in my aging neuromatter....."don't I have an album that has a blank, unmodulated side 4????" Dang!!! What the heck was the name of that album??? Couple hours later, it came to me out of nowhere!!! Of course! It's the Johnny Winter, Second Winter album! So, I dragged it out and started to do the test. I came to what appeared to be a satisfactory, "arm moves very, very slowly inward towards the spindle in the area where the run-out groove would be and guess what? I then discovered that there are sharper minds than mine who assert this test has NO BEARING on antiskating because the measurement depends on the stylus being in the groove, which is what causes "skating" to begin with!! OK, so now what? Deflated and sunken as I was feeling, I concluded that the blank disk test might at very least tell me something about the amount of force being applied one direction or the other, and that if I used Peter's suggestion about how to set it, then might that not get me in the ballpark? This is what led me to the method I am using now, setting first with the blank disk and then by ear using my headphones, making small changes up or down in force until my ears tell me I hit the sweet spot.

Lastly, I laughed out loud at the comment @radiokom made about the similarity between this and setting tape deck heads by ear!!! Armand, you crack me up man! That is exactly how I remember doing it back in the 70s! What fun we have with this hobby.....even if we might not get it precisely, scientifically, measurably, repeatably, empirically right all the time, it's just plain joy when we arrive at something that, to our ears, sounds so dang nice!

 

[Mr Boochie]

Maybe, buy the Tacet Test Record and listen to the Skating track (#6 on side 1) and see how your setup sounds?

I use headphones. It works for me.

Tacet Vinyl Check.

 

[Fishead]

Thanks Booch! I have several test LPs, the Analogue Productions Ultimate Analogue Test LP is one of them.....it has an anti-skating test (Track 1, Side 2) and while I have experimented with that before, I really didn't give it a whole lot of effort and might go back just to check how things are based on my "ears test." And yes, as I mentioned in my previous post, headphones are really helpful for this.....

 

[radiokom]

Anyway, I highly recommend to buy this excellent test record:

Hi-Fi News - Analogue Test LP: The Producer's Cut

The world's largest online retailer of high-end audio, audiophile music, and accessories. We specialize in vinyl records and turntables.

www.musicdirect.com

I have more than 10 various test records including Ortofon direct cut, Brüel & Kjær, Deutsche Grammophon (DIN) and so on for different purposes.
But this one is basic calibration record.
If you complete all tests (except maybe track 9 side A - this is torture for 95% cartridge) properly, your system will be aligned OK.
If you have turntable you should have this test record.
It does not mean you can not experiment.

 

[cafe latte]

This is a really interesting observation. Apparently Sound Smith's customers had it the other way around:

"Usually, most folks use far too much antiskating, as evidenced by the thousands of cartridges I have rebuilt over the last 40+ years – as evidenced by observation of the outer edge (right channel) of the diamond to be worn far more than the inner, or left channel."

Do you think that what you're seeing might be a recent development, a reflection of the advice you're seeing to use no or very little antiskate?

Sumiko offered the rule of thumb to set antiskate at about 2/3 of the value recommended by the scale on your turntable. At least on a Rega arm I had, that value was exactly the same as what I got using the Frank Schroder watch-the-arm-in-the-run-out-groove method that Sound Smith promotes. Sonically, the minimum antiskate setting and the 2/3 setting both sounded equally good, and better than matching numbers on the vtf and anti skate adjusters.

Yes, no or little antiskate seems to be a recent trend. On forums someone says don't use antiskate with Grado or some other cart suddenly everyone is running them with no antiskate.
I think too there are more arms with simple to dial in antiskate than there was in the past. With a weight on a string over a hook and a rigged arm being more common I imagine it was a lot easier to apply way too much skate.
Also in the past Rega arms were the arm to have, much less so now and they were renowned for having far too strong antiskate.
Chris

 

[krautmaster]

I just set mine on the new tonearm (RB330/Incognito re-wire) with AT-VM740ML cart... I had it set down near zero, but after taking all the advice on this thread, I have split the difference and have it set just a bit over ONE on the slider (VTF set at 2.2 grams) which is about half what Rega calls for and I'm pretty sure that near zero wasn't enough. I will play around with it tomorrow using my headphones, but it sounds pretty sweet right now.

 

[Fishead]

I'd be interested in what you hear when you start listening with the headphones herr krautmaster! Please let us know what your process was and what you found so that we all might benefit. I'm thinking of doing a similar thing.....again.....in the near future once the fishing and camping season is over and I spend more time with my system once again.

I'm going to go out on the proverbial limb and suggest that once you've completed your machinations and experimentations, you will find it sounds best.....wait for it....."a bit over ONE on the slider!" Just a guess amigo...... Does this mean that if you had all the fancy equipment to actually measure the force accurately that it would still be in the same position? Who the heck knows, but if your ears tell you that's where it needs to be, what else really matters? OK, OK, then there's stylus wear, record wear, and who knows what other evils lurk from not having it set perfectly but at this stage of my game, not going to be too concerned about much else besides how it sounds to my ears.....have some fun!!!

 

[Doug G.]

CD-4 is is considerably more critical, getting equal pressure on both groove walls to avoid the various distortions that can occur with the format. Upon initially setting it up, years ago, I discovered that AS had to be about 2/3 - 3/4, as indicated on the dial, what the VTF was on my BIC tables to get perfect reproduction. So, I use that rule on all records, CD-4 or otherwise. Playing CD-4 is no different from playing regular mono or two channel records, for me.

I also discovered that the brushes, present on certain cartridges, messed up CD-4 tracking and they have been removed from all my cartridges which originally had them. If they mess up tracking with CD-4, they will with other records too, even if you can't necessarily hear it, with those records.

Doug

 

[Fishead]

Doug, interesting observations. I was one of those quad guys early on as well, got a Pioneer QX-949 and an Empire 598III with the 4000DIII cartridge. In those days, 1975, I relied on the manufacturer and never messed with the cartridge setup that was done at the factory with my 598! Still, I got the little red light (quad indicator) every time I put on my Doobies, Captain And Me, or Eagles, On The Border etc. etc. so I suppose I too was just lucky that everything was set up properly. I do remember having to use that little 7" record that came with the 949 to set the levels properly, but that was about it! It makes sense, though, what you say and I'm thinking 2/3 of VTF is right about where I'm riding currently. It will be fun to start messing around with all of this again.....thank you for your observations.

 

[qdrone]

I use side four of 2nd Winter, which is a groove less blank slab of vinyl. I adjust the anti skate so that the arm goes toward the spindle at the same speed across the record. Works for me. By the arm going across record at the same speed,the stylus is dead nuts in record groove and not favoring the r or l channel. This is how I was taught.

 

[Fishead]

Hahaha, yeah, see my earlier post......2nd Winter......

 

[qdrone]

I then play the mis tracking section on this. If there is no distortion in either channel i did it right.

 

[Fishead]

Never saw that record before senor @qdrone! First time for everything!

 

[jsisk]

Never saw that record before senor @qdrone! First time for everything!

I have one too. I got mine when I bought my Technics turntable and Shure V15-type IV cartridge in 1980. Shure did a couple other version for their V15 cartridges.

 

[Coolhandjjl]

“The easiest way to set your anti skate is to purchase a thin smooth acrylic mat (mine is 2mm thick), place the arm down on the platter/mat while it is rotating and adjust the anti skate to where the arm doesn't swing in to the center or off the outer edge of the platter-”

I bought a laser disk for next to nothing to use to get to the tone arm staying in place, not drifting towards spindle or outer edge of the platter.

That would apply too much a/s

 

[Mr Boochie]

Never saw that record before senor @qdrone! First time for everything!

Those later Shure Obstacle test records are nice. I have the Type V one.

https://www.discogs.com/release/3063721-No-Artist-The-V15-Type-V-Shure-Audio-Obstacle-Course

 

[Doug G.]

Another thing to know, in reference to the numbers on a typical anti-skate dial on a turntable, is that those numbers mean nothing as to the actual anti-skate force being applied to the stylus/arm. When you set VTF to, say, 2 grams and then set AS to "2", there are not 2 grams of outward force being applied to the arm. Those numbers are correlated just as a convenient reference by the manufacturer to make it easy to set AS.

Doug