High end speaker wire

[Tedrick]

I simply don't buy into the psychoacoustics theory based on personal experiences and those of folks who's ears I trust. I think if you buy into it, you haven't yet learned how to listen and how to trust your own ears.

Strike three!!

I simply fail to understand the whole cable thing and why it polarizes some people so. If I hear a difference and you don't, it doesn't make one of us right and the other wrong, it just makes us different. Viva la difference!

 

[stuartk]

Roger's designing his own speakers now. When I asked the presenter at a recent Midwest exposition if they were wired internally with lamp cord, he said they were Nordost inside. When I asked if this wasn't at odds with Roger's stated position, he said "He wasn't trying to sell speakers when he wrote that."

People want fancy wire, so he gives them fancy wire.

That doesn't mean his feelings about wire have changed, just that he's doing what he feels is needed to sell expensive speakers.

What it always comes back to, for me, is that I haven't found that fancy wire is a cost-effective place for me to spend my entertainment dollars. I'd rather buy some CDs or LPs, better speakers, concert tickets, a present for my wife, etc.

YMMV

 

[beans]

People want fancy wire, so he gives them fancy wire.

That doesn't mean his feelings about wire have changed, just that he's doing what he feels is needed to sell expensive speakers.
YMMV

Exactly...he explains that very openly on his web site (he also says he uses Cardas, not Nordost). To some, that may not seem like the utmost in integrity, but since he explains it in a way that makes sense, in light of the fact that he's selling a speaker system that goes for around $17,000 I think, I don't see how you can use it to discredit him.

I have no stake in it, either...in fact after reading this discussion I am going do some experimentation on my own. If people say they hear a difference in their own environment, I have no reason to doubt it.

 

[Mr. Lin]

Of course, always problems with the tests when they don't go our way.

But, OTOH, it's a much greater attempt at really trying something than most people will ever do, and I think that lends some creedence in and of itself.

Then, there is always, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.".

I don't know, but this one is so seriously flawed I felt it more than fair to point that out; I don't think the experiment proves anything one way or the other.

In my opinion just because it's a "greater attempt" than other people may ever make does not lend it any particular credence.

 

[Bigerik]

In my opinion just because it's a "greater attempt" than other people may ever make does not lend it any particular credence.

Kinda like the greatest attempt at the Snake River Canyon....

Which ended up as:

 

[whoaru99]

I don't know, but this one is so seriously flawed I felt it more than fair to point that out; I don't think the experiment proves anything one way or the other.

In my opinion just because it's a "greater attempt" than other people may ever make does not lend it any particular credence.

Of course our opinions differ. You asked for some evidence that any sort of testing has actually been done. That just happened to be a fresh example in my mind. I was pretty sure it wouldn't change anything because it never does, but I took the bait anyway.

However, it's certainly subject to less flaw than in the typical "test" done in one's living room as one personally changes the cables around and knows full well when and if a change has been made.

But, of course, no test is ever perfect enough. Then again, I've seen arguments just the other way too. Once the test is beyond scrutiny from a methodology standpoint, the argument then becomes that the test is too perfect and too scientific.

 

[Negotiableterms]

Hmmm... I wonder if modern digital analysis would be able to detect differences between signals routed through one cable vs another? This should be easy to test for interconnects, and maybe a bit harder for speaker cable.

One problem might be that when you feed an analog signal to an ADC, you seldom get the same stream twice, because the timing has to be identical between the two runs, and that's largely impossible to achieve unless you can synchronize the clock of the two ADCs... but I think there's gear that does that. Does anyone know?

I really think this would be a great fun experiment at next year's Fest. Erik, you in, if I can come up with the gear?

 

[Face]

The last meet I had here, we were going to run Room EQ Wizard for each pair of cables, but since I'm using a digital coax out to my preamp, I can't use a analog in.

 

[stereofanboy]

I wouldn't mind witnessing a blind test, but I'll never do one myself because I will never have thousand dollar cables to test. Any extra money seems to go toward things that make a more obvious difference, speakers amps etc. If I hear cables like this somewhere they will be hooked up to a much more expensive system than mine, so, can't judge on that comparison either.

 

[Bigerik]

Hmmm... I wonder if modern digital analysis would be able to detect differences between signals routed through one cable vs another? This should be easy to test for interconnects, and maybe a bit harder for speaker cable.

One problem might be that when you feed an analog signal to an ADC, you seldom get the same stream twice, because the timing has to be identical between the two runs, and that's largely impossible to achieve unless you can synchronize the clock of the two ADCs... but I think there's gear that does that. Does anyone know?

I really think this would be a great fun experiment at next year's Fest. Erik, you in, if I can come up with the gear?

Of course I am. :yes:
Sounds like fun.

 

[Bigerik]

I wouldn't mind witnessing a blind test, but I'll never do one myself because I will never have thousand dollar cables to test. Any extra money seems to go toward things that make a more obvious difference, speakers amps etc. If I hear cables like this somewhere they will be hooked up to a much more expensive system than mine, so, can't judge on that comparison either.

Certainly no need for thousand dollar cables to hear the difference. Don't even need $100 cables for that. A certain, minimum level of system resolution is required, of course, and most importantly, an open mind.

 

[Bigerik]

Actually, to clarify my open mind comment, when I first heard the difference, I was just humouring a guest in my home. I did not expect to hear the difference at all. In fact, I firmly believed there would not be a difference. However, the difference was so big, it literally stopped me dead in my tracks, walking back from the gear. Made an almost unlistenable Fleetwood Mac cd (well, most cd's are almost unlistenable, but I digress ) sound good. The IC's used were Grover Cables worth a little over $100.

 

[stuartk]

Of course our opinions differ. You asked for some evidence that any sort of testing has actually been done. That just happened to be a fresh example in my mind. I was pretty sure it wouldn't change anything because it never does, but I took the bait anyway.

I thought it was an interesting test to read about.

I don't see that it was fatally flawed either.

It's an account of people's personal listening experience, and that's what we're here for, n'est ce pas?

 

[subdermis2000]

Certainly no need for thousand dollar cables to hear the difference. Don't even need $100 cables for that. A certain, minimum level of system resolution is required, of course, and most importantly, an open mind.

I've got an example.

I was half-way through replacing the crap extension cord hodge-podge that I had in one of my systems with nice clean equal runs of Belden 1810A when a friend of mine popped over. I had given it a listen and thought I heard a difference (I had my wife switching the speakers) but since said friend is a visual artist and audio means virtually nothing to him, I decided to use his ears as a test. Already set up were two stacked pairs of Polk Monitor 40s hooked up to my 2275 with my PC as source. I started switching between A + B on the receiver, sometimes changing from one channel to the other, sometimes changing back to the same channel. The end result of about 10 minutes of listening was that he could easily tell which channel was which and he described the 1810A channel as fuller, louder, and clearer.

The main change? Crap wire was 18 ga large strand old wire. New wire was 2 14 ga small strand wires for each +ve and –ve.

 

[ozmoid]

...in fact after reading this discussion I am going do some experimentation on my own.

I made some DIY Cat-5 speaker cables because they "looked cool" (cooler than the 18ga landscape wire I was using, anyway ) for a friend. After hooking them up and giving a listen, there was such an audible difference I promptly went home and made myself a set.

Since then, I've realized that not all cables make an audible difference in my system, and not all the differences are good. Making good cable choices requires experimenting with your gear to see what works best. You are on the right path.

I wouldn't mind witnessing a blind test, but I'll never do one myself because I will never have thousand dollar cables to test.

There are some very affordable options for DIY projects. Mucho $$$ is not a requirement for cable experimentation.

 

[beans]

[

I simply fail to understand the whole cable thing and why it polarizes some people so. If I hear a difference and you don't, it doesn't make one of us right and the other wrong, it just makes us different. Viva la difference!

I can take a stab at that. There is a pride and ego thing going on here. Those who hear a difference are saying they know how to listen and/or have better ears than those who express doubts. And if you are the least bit skeptical, you don't know how to listen, and are an unsophisticated dweeb. Scroll back...you'll see it stated over and over.

Those who are doubtful are calling that first group victims of the psychoacoustic phenomenon, where "believing is hearing". And I'm the one who injected the term into this discussion, but I did not do so with a closed mind. I just find it interesting.

Erik, I am only reiterating...I am not slamming anyone or polarizing. Personally I am keeping an open mind.

The other problem is that listening comparisons are totally subjective, which has also be re-stated...I'm just pointing out why the polarization IMO. There seems to be no specific scientific measurement that can explain the differences being heard, and the doubters will not take the word of the other group.

 

[roadie1]

I'm promising myself right now I'm not going to read or reply to any more cable threads. They're just beatin' me down. Some hear difference, some don't. ABC sound's better than XYZ.

If any of you have read my thread's/response's then you know I'm one that doe's believe there's a difference. No matter. And no, I don't have better ears than anyone here. In fact they may be worse as I lean towards the brighter side of thing's to compensate for loss in the higher range's at 50 year's old.

AK= All thing's audio, to me that mean's there's no amp, CDP, speaker or cable that sound's better than any other. Unless, it sounds better to you.

I'm not trying to put a negative spin/flavor on this. I just get tired....R1:yes:

 

[Face]

Sometimes the associated gear isn't revealing enough to allow the user to hear a subtle change.

 

[sauuuuuce]

Sometimes the associated gear isn't revealing enough to allow the user to hear a subtle change.

...Meaning in some cases cables don't matter?

The times it does matter is when the system owner thinks it does. If a person thinks a cable sounds better then they should use it. But they also shouldn't go touting that they are superior because they can hear the difference. I have said before that the only opinion that matters on my system is mine. I still listen to people that know more than me (that's almost everyone) and take that advice into account. But if I do or do not hear a difference is not going to be affected by someone else saying there is one.

 

[Face]

...Meaning in some cases cables don't matter?

Nope.

I'm done with this discussion, there are too many closed minded people here.