gusten
Addicted Member
There is no possible way to know by listening if stylus drag has anything to do with it, which is my only concern, not if some thinks an idler sound good.
gusten
Idler wheel "magic"...
- Thread starter DominicL
- Start date
There is no possible way to know by listening if stylus drag has anything to do with it, which is my only concern, not if some thinks an idler sound good.
gusten
That's what separates so many of us. I get that some care "why", I only care "if".
Daniel Walte
Active Member
roofing tar to everything not affecting operation. even coat and let it dry.
very low cost. about as good as you can get in the poor mans version
very low cost. about as good as you can get in the poor mans version
I really don't care if there is stylus drag. I just want to know what sounds the best. And only my ears will tell me that.. The "why" is just an interesting intellectual exercise.
gusten
Addicted Member
Of course they will, at least what sounds best to You. But if we should learn something, which was the OP´s intention we need a little more facts.
gusten
I still believe that designing a light and simple product will be more challenging than a heavy one.
I'm a big believer in Colin Chapman's axiom:
"Simplify, and add lightness."
Having lived with a Rega P9, I believe the Rega approach is the right one. I have heard a lot of high end tables, but that is the one I could have as my last one.
I'm a big believer in Colin Chapman's axiom:
"Simplify, and add lightness."
Having lived with a Rega P9, I believe the Rega approach is the right one. I have heard a lot of high end tables, but that is the one I could have as my last one.
mfrench
Addicted Member
Have you guys seen the demonstration video for the Sutherland TimeLine Strobe Weight?
Its demonstrated on a massive platter belt drive; I'm assuming it to be an upper end table - looks like it, seems like it, blah blah blah, smells like a duck.
He makes a point of showing how he uses a bit of blue tack on the wall to mark the rotational reference point, and makes adjustments such that the strobe mark hits his reference point.
Then he introduces stylus drag by putting the needle down onto the record.
As soon as the needle touches the record, the reference point completely moves rearward, which is expressing stylus drag; and this is just on the run-in groove, without musical impulse effect.
This is shown between 2:40->3:29, if you want to skip to the meat of this example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF2XieUlzvk
I tried a variation of this with my KAB Speed Strobe mat, and an idler drive with a heavy platter. It's also a very sensitive speed measuring device that easily shows minute speed variations.
In comparing what I saw on the demo video, and what I saw on an idler drive, was like comparing night and day.
The heavy platter belt drive slowed and stayed slow due to stylus drag. The heavy platter idler showed the influence of the needle drop, but immediately self-corrected. It took several drops for me to even realize that there was any sort of speed change anomaly with the idler drive, as it was truly in the small milliseconds of time that it took to self-correct. The belt drive in the demo video never did self-correct, and it was suggested that an adjustment would be necessary at the motors controller, if applicable. To me, this suggests stylus drag to be a very real consideration that belt drives cannot even correct with what appears to be a seriously heavy platter.
Its demonstrated on a massive platter belt drive; I'm assuming it to be an upper end table - looks like it, seems like it, blah blah blah, smells like a duck.
He makes a point of showing how he uses a bit of blue tack on the wall to mark the rotational reference point, and makes adjustments such that the strobe mark hits his reference point.
Then he introduces stylus drag by putting the needle down onto the record.
As soon as the needle touches the record, the reference point completely moves rearward, which is expressing stylus drag; and this is just on the run-in groove, without musical impulse effect.
This is shown between 2:40->3:29, if you want to skip to the meat of this example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF2XieUlzvk
I tried a variation of this with my KAB Speed Strobe mat, and an idler drive with a heavy platter. It's also a very sensitive speed measuring device that easily shows minute speed variations.
In comparing what I saw on the demo video, and what I saw on an idler drive, was like comparing night and day.
The heavy platter belt drive slowed and stayed slow due to stylus drag. The heavy platter idler showed the influence of the needle drop, but immediately self-corrected. It took several drops for me to even realize that there was any sort of speed change anomaly with the idler drive, as it was truly in the small milliseconds of time that it took to self-correct. The belt drive in the demo video never did self-correct, and it was suggested that an adjustment would be necessary at the motors controller, if applicable. To me, this suggests stylus drag to be a very real consideration that belt drives cannot even correct with what appears to be a seriously heavy platter.
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marc mc
Super Member
Sorry was I not clear. I saw a test that showed it. the printout did not just show speed in the 33.3 domain. I gave an actual printout more like a lie detector. They were scriggles about an inch from top to bottom and very close together.
I saw the scriggles from about 30 tables as we compared them. The sheet they were on had markers that correspond to the place on the test record they took place. Transients and bass content speed variations was the point the whole test was designed to demonstrate.
I saw what your asking to see! It's real!
marc mc
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dnewma04
The Healer
This doesn't make sense unless they used a woefully inadequate motor. Belt drives seem to primarily AC sync motors that will increase torque to keep speed. The "permanent-ish" slow down wouldn't happen on a ac sync motor. I'm trying to think of what, if any motor type, wouldn't recover speed, and quickly so.
Just watched the video. It does drop back but stabilized quickly at the needle drop. I'd also like to see the effect attempted with something other than a weight. A clamp for instance.
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mfrench
Addicted Member
Smells like a duck,...
12" arm (at least a longer than 9" arm), separate motor pod, thick heavy platter - it doesn't appear to be a cheap TT. But then again, I don't follow the developments or current trends in BD's. To my eye, it looks like a decent machine.
this post was in reference to the Sutherland Timeline Strobe, from above.
12" arm (at least a longer than 9" arm), separate motor pod, thick heavy platter - it doesn't appear to be a cheap TT. But then again, I don't follow the developments or current trends in BD's. To my eye, it looks like a decent machine.
this post was in reference to the Sutherland Timeline Strobe, from above.
Pio1980
AK Member
Re variable speed resilient belt drive; You really want to set strobe speed with the thing cued and playing to comp. It'll still vary a bit but generally below perceptibility.
Re absolute pitch integrity;
The two things I noticed immediately when I first heard CD was an uncanny absolute pitch integrity and the ability to handle various sound sources equally without the mechanical resonance issues of LP recording and playback. OTOH, early CDs signature hard harshness was a real letdown.
Re absolute pitch integrity;
The two things I noticed immediately when I first heard CD was an uncanny absolute pitch integrity and the ability to handle various sound sources equally without the mechanical resonance issues of LP recording and playback. OTOH, early CDs signature hard harshness was a real letdown.
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totem
Addicted Member
As I mentioned quite a ways back, re the Sutherland timeline, there have been many
TT tested and some brand new high dollar tables were not even able to run without
a stylus and keep proper speed.
Lets say there was some head turning at the results.
Without mentioning any brands, some of the TTs that were able to show No speed deviation with or without a needle in a grove were Vintage models running very
sophisticated speed control circuits.
Again can one hear the deviation?
TT tested and some brand new high dollar tables were not even able to run without
a stylus and keep proper speed.
Lets say there was some head turning at the results.
Without mentioning any brands, some of the TTs that were able to show No speed deviation with or without a needle in a grove were Vintage models running very
sophisticated speed control circuits.
Again can one hear the deviation?
charles 1973
Super Member
I love the concept of an External Rim Drive. I see no reason if it were properly implemented why it couldn't match or at least get very close to the performance of many fine TT's offered today.
Which ones?
dnewma04
The Healer
A very good implementation of an idler should be able to perform very well. I don't think anyone would dispute that. In fact, there are a few idlers here and there in the high end audio world. Traditionally, the biggest issue was noise floor which was often times 10-15dB higher than similarly built belt and direct drives.
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