Nope. And sadly, it is amazing how good some of them sound. And how different from each other. So many different flavors of awesome.
Idler wheel "magic"...
- Thread starter DominicL
- Start date
Nope. And sadly, it is amazing how good some of them sound. And how different from each other. So many different flavors of awesome.
DominicL
Active Member
After some more thinking and a few of the posts I read here, I am more sure than ever that it is not torque that makes an idler drive sound different.
Please, folks. I am not trying to bash Arthur Salvatore. I do like his unbiased "opinions" and I agree totally that an idler sounds better than a belt or direct drive. And I do not own any high end equipment so I do not even belong in the same sentence as him. And I do believe his experience in the audio field is second to none. However, I still don't buy the "effective torque" theory. If he was feeling the platter with his finger test, his result was partially skewed by the flywheel effect of the platter. I bet his finger test would find as much resistance with the heavier platter of his Forsell. Sorry. I just do not believe this is the reason for the different, or superior sound of the idler drive turntable.
I also did a finger test of my own. My weathers turntable is the epitome of zero torque. As I mentioned earlier, a dust brush can slow it down yet sounds as good as any of my other idlers including the qrk idler broadcast turntable which, i can not stop with my finger before slight burn! Again, sounding good is subjective. It's an opinion by me and only me so far. There has to be some sort of test for this!
My opinion once again. The spinning rubber dampens or cancels the bad vibrations of the spinning platter while allowing the true high fidelity of the recording to show through for better or worse. Kind of like what decoupling does to eliminate unwanted resonance from the table below the turntable. I don't know if any other method of dampening the spinning platter would have the same result. I only briefly tried an old empire belt around the platter but could not a/b test properly to find anything out. Can somebody please tell me how to test this? I don't care if I am wrong. Im having fun tinkering!
Please, folks. I am not trying to bash Arthur Salvatore. I do like his unbiased "opinions" and I agree totally that an idler sounds better than a belt or direct drive. And I do not own any high end equipment so I do not even belong in the same sentence as him. And I do believe his experience in the audio field is second to none. However, I still don't buy the "effective torque" theory. If he was feeling the platter with his finger test, his result was partially skewed by the flywheel effect of the platter. I bet his finger test would find as much resistance with the heavier platter of his Forsell. Sorry. I just do not believe this is the reason for the different, or superior sound of the idler drive turntable.
I also did a finger test of my own. My weathers turntable is the epitome of zero torque. As I mentioned earlier, a dust brush can slow it down yet sounds as good as any of my other idlers including the qrk idler broadcast turntable which, i can not stop with my finger before slight burn! Again, sounding good is subjective. It's an opinion by me and only me so far. There has to be some sort of test for this!
My opinion once again. The spinning rubber dampens or cancels the bad vibrations of the spinning platter while allowing the true high fidelity of the recording to show through for better or worse. Kind of like what decoupling does to eliminate unwanted resonance from the table below the turntable. I don't know if any other method of dampening the spinning platter would have the same result. I only briefly tried an old empire belt around the platter but could not a/b test properly to find anything out. Can somebody please tell me how to test this? I don't care if I am wrong. Im having fun tinkering!
gusten
Addicted Member
I agree that the time is short and that the test might not reflect what it should, the thinking could be flawed. I will try to think of a better way to measure the difference.
But as I wrote previously, if I´m thinking straight the worst scenario would be when stylus is on the onset of mistracking, and if using sine waves where each sine is close to this, the difference should show up.
Anyway explaining a supposed difference in sound between drive systems, with an instantaneous stylus drag, by stating that this drag is the important issue and idlers will handle this better than other drive systems, is something that needs on open mind IMO. Personally I cannot see that it holds water, so far.
Instantaneously the forces on the needle are all over the place, depending on where on the sine curve we look. One of the reasons I believe that vibrations is a rather big issue.
gusten
Last edited:
marc mc
Super Member
The things that Arthur and others theory addresses are so minuscule. It is unlikely they could be measured at all. And it's also important to add that a TT is a system. Would the Lenco drive advantage be heard through a $200 cart? I doubt it. Is the arm on Duals hiding the potential of their idlers? Probably.
I would consider my arm and cart the bare minimum. I rarely see the cartridges used in these home trials mentioned. Arthur never said that you can buy an old Lenco, have it modded, throw any arm/cart combo on it and presto! You have a State of the Art table.
Marc mc
I would consider my arm and cart the bare minimum. I rarely see the cartridges used in these home trials mentioned. Arthur never said that you can buy an old Lenco, have it modded, throw any arm/cart combo on it and presto! You have a State of the Art table.
Marc mc
Arkay
Lunatic Member
Wow! Has this thread ever taken on a life of its own. I don't have time now to go back over everything posted since my last visit, so I'll respond to a couple of things from the last two pages:
There are torque meters, but most of the ones I've seen are for testing the torque applied to nuts on bolts, when they are not rotating. Not sure how you'd adapt one of those to measure a turntable. There are probably rotational torque-meter devices out there, though, that would be appropriate.
The simple test of your theory about the rubber idler wheel being a damper is one I mentioned earlier in this thread: Run an idler assembly against a platter while the platter is spinning, but not using the motor to drive the platter via the idler. In other words, the idler is just free-wheeling against the side of the platter, unpowered. If the improvement is due to the pressing of the rubber wheel against the platter, and not the torque it is applying, then the sonic improvement should be there, with or without the torque, which originates from the motor. A relatively simple, easy experiment.
You won't ruin it running it a bit over-voltage, but it will last longer if you run it at (or nearer) the correct voltage. Most motors are safe to run within 10-20 percent over voltage, and you may get a bit of a performance boost (a little higher torque), depending upon the motor, but they will break down faster that way. I'd suggest running it at the recommended voltage, for best results overall. Using a step-down transformer would also add a bit of noise isolation and cleaner power, which won't hurt.
It's the switch! It's all due to the mechanical switch!
Okay, that was a feeble joke. In fact, you can replace the switch and still get the sound. You can also upgrade the bearing, motor, idler wheel and even the platter. You'll still have that great idler sound, just in different sonic variations.
Yes, I hope they don't get higher, yet. I want to add to my hoarded horde of about a dozen Lencos, a couple of Garrards, a few Duals, a pair of Elacs, a Micro (Seiki) and whatever I'm forgetting, before the prices go any higher. I need more, if I'm to fund my retirement travel with the proceeds of selling off the excess of (soon to become) "mega-valuable" TTs!
Seriously, I think there are limits to how valuable any of these will become. The 301s and 401s set the benchmark for idler drives, and probably will continue to do so, as they are the most over-engineered examples, and have a good headstart. Also, their supply was never as great as that of the Lencos; a LOT of Lencos were sold over the years, to consumers, and the larger supply should keep them at somewhat lower prices, at least relatively speaking.
I haven't done the work to test my theories, but I suspect that with the right mods, some of the other idler models can become "giant killers", too. Despite some naysayers who disagree, I think there is hidden potential in the Garrard 4HF, for example. It has more in common with the 301s than many realize, and the differences can be mostly tweaked/modded so as to be minimized (although not entirely eliminated). Given it's great nostalgic looks, I'm really hoping to be able to make a "giant killer" out of it, with a very special plinth that will complement its unique look.
There are torque meters, but most of the ones I've seen are for testing the torque applied to nuts on bolts, when they are not rotating. Not sure how you'd adapt one of those to measure a turntable. There are probably rotational torque-meter devices out there, though, that would be appropriate.
The simple test of your theory about the rubber idler wheel being a damper is one I mentioned earlier in this thread: Run an idler assembly against a platter while the platter is spinning, but not using the motor to drive the platter via the idler. In other words, the idler is just free-wheeling against the side of the platter, unpowered. If the improvement is due to the pressing of the rubber wheel against the platter, and not the torque it is applying, then the sonic improvement should be there, with or without the torque, which originates from the motor. A relatively simple, easy experiment.
You won't ruin it running it a bit over-voltage, but it will last longer if you run it at (or nearer) the correct voltage. Most motors are safe to run within 10-20 percent over voltage, and you may get a bit of a performance boost (a little higher torque), depending upon the motor, but they will break down faster that way. I'd suggest running it at the recommended voltage, for best results overall. Using a step-down transformer would also add a bit of noise isolation and cleaner power, which won't hurt.
It's the switch! It's all due to the mechanical switch!
Okay, that was a feeble joke. In fact, you can replace the switch and still get the sound. You can also upgrade the bearing, motor, idler wheel and even the platter. You'll still have that great idler sound, just in different sonic variations.
Yes, I hope they don't get higher, yet. I want to add to my hoarded horde of about a dozen Lencos, a couple of Garrards, a few Duals, a pair of Elacs, a Micro (Seiki) and whatever I'm forgetting, before the prices go any higher. I need more, if I'm to fund my retirement travel with the proceeds of selling off the excess of (soon to become) "mega-valuable" TTs!
Seriously, I think there are limits to how valuable any of these will become. The 301s and 401s set the benchmark for idler drives, and probably will continue to do so, as they are the most over-engineered examples, and have a good headstart. Also, their supply was never as great as that of the Lencos; a LOT of Lencos were sold over the years, to consumers, and the larger supply should keep them at somewhat lower prices, at least relatively speaking.
I haven't done the work to test my theories, but I suspect that with the right mods, some of the other idler models can become "giant killers", too. Despite some naysayers who disagree, I think there is hidden potential in the Garrard 4HF, for example. It has more in common with the 301s than many realize, and the differences can be mostly tweaked/modded so as to be minimized (although not entirely eliminated). Given it's great nostalgic looks, I'm really hoping to be able to make a "giant killer" out of it, with a very special plinth that will complement its unique look.
DominicL
Active Member
See this is my problem here. Comparing a drive to another has nothing to do with cartridges. Absolutely nothing. the lenco drive in my opinion sux with respect to torque. Dual motors out do this. I can prove with a sandpaper on the idler to true it up test. It can't be any worse than a finger on the platter test. And he does mention there are other idler drives that may be as good. The thing here is NO ONE built him one to try...yet With that I am officially out. I've have enough of "he said she said" with all the "if this kinpin of audio said it then it must be ture". I call BS!! Good day all.
Going back to what Pneuman was talking about earlier, Oracle used the ultimate o-ring on their early tables. In a Carveresque fashion, they named it the Peripheral Wave Trap.
Now, way back when, the Oracle was looked at as a quicker, faster sounding competitor for the LP12.
Now, way back when, the Oracle was looked at as a quicker, faster sounding competitor for the LP12.
Daniel Walte
Active Member
Arkay, welcome back! You stated this:You won't ruin it running it a bit over-voltage, but it will last longer if you run it at (or nearer) the correct voltage. Most motors are safe to run within 10-20 percent over voltage, and you may get a bit of a performance boost (a little higher torque), depending upon the motor, but they will break down faster that way. I'd suggest running it at the recommended voltage, for best results overall. Using a step-down transformer would also add a bit of noise isolation and cleaner power, which won't hurt.
If I am getting a boost it might leave when I started using the step down voltage converter, or in other words the motor not spin up to speed enuf after being boosted so long, lol
And on the other hands I might have to fight hum induced by the converter. ,god how I hate fighting hummers>
Years of experience kinda tells me that the latter is more probable than everything will be ok with the voltage converter
If I am getting a boost it might leave when I started using the step down voltage converter, or in other words the motor not spin up to speed enuf after being boosted so long, lol
And on the other hands I might have to fight hum induced by the converter. ,god how I hate fighting hummers>
Years of experience kinda tells me that the latter is more probable than everything will be ok with the voltage converter
Last edited:
From the looks of pic #4 in the first post of this thread, that is exactly what he did. Nobody else has, from what I can see...
Daniel Walte
Active Member
you gotta give it to them germans! they can underengineer tables to have worst specs tables and still be able to use same arm/motor combo in a lot of their models on the more expensive ones , cutting their production costs:yes:
Apoplectic
Well-Known Member
Because if they did this they would have to vary the angles for every table-arm-cart combo. Every table (I think) has a different speed at which the arm just naturally drifts towards the spindle, every arm has a different mass (even two of the same arms can have different masses due to tolerences) which would require different angles to overcome the different momentums, ditto with carts.
And just for the record, I just bought my first belt drive tt and here you guys go making me wish I got an idler drive instead. I hate you all in the most loving way.
Pio1980
AK Member
Originally Posted by Daniel Walte;
"Could the record company's by now come up with a way to cut the album so as not any turntable would need antiskate? seems like it would be possible to cut the grooves at an angle to compensate."
If they issued cylindrical record for the players with a radial linear arm playing them, they wouldn't need anti-skate. A pivoted arm won't work right with a cylinder record. The disc shaped ones with pivoted arms do need anti-skate for balanced even playback and stylus wear, with a radial linear arm A/S is not needed. Physics is physics.
"Could the record company's by now come up with a way to cut the album so as not any turntable would need antiskate? seems like it would be possible to cut the grooves at an angle to compensate."
If they issued cylindrical record for the players with a radial linear arm playing them, they wouldn't need anti-skate. A pivoted arm won't work right with a cylinder record. The disc shaped ones with pivoted arms do need anti-skate for balanced even playback and stylus wear, with a radial linear arm A/S is not needed. Physics is physics.
Daniel Walte
Active Member
Their is nothing wrong with belt drives they can and have the engineering behind them to be outstanding. Its like this a good sounding table is a good sounding table no matter what drives it to the fair,
Daniel Walte
Active Member
this is true I had a Pioneer pl-1000a until a month ago when the arm movement circuitry went out. She saw my garbage can. it was a good table but really had to get things setup perfectly with them to get the best .very sensitive to leveling for the arm to work properly. But once you got her tweeked she sang good!
Pio1980
AK Member
On this note I think I'm done here.
Daniel Walte
Active Member
as far as antiskate this can for the most part be eliminated for the most part by the type of drive system applied to arm that is engineered to help overcome it.
Alot of tables in the past did this. I`m just glad I nabbed one for only 50 bucks off the bay about 6 years ago<under the radar> you might say
Alot of tables in the past did this. I`m just glad I nabbed one for only 50 bucks off the bay about 6 years ago<under the radar> you might say
Similar threads
