Idler wheel "magic"...

[dnewma04]

So, what we are talking about here is basically a way of dampening the platter, right? I don´think that external iddler is doing anything else.

I wonder what the result of using a sufficiently large "O Ring" around the platter would be.....:scratch2:

It would be an Oracle.

 

[Sanc]

This is a really cool thread.

Sorta got me thinking about what would happen if you took the idler wheel/rim drive device and fit the wheel for a Thorens belt driven table like the 16X series. Mount the wheel/rim drive where the motor is normally mounted and making sure the wheel's diameter is the correct size to spin the sub-platter.

 

[kirk57]

So, what we are talking about here is basically a way of dampening the platter, right? I don´think that external iddler is doing anything else.

I wonder what the result of using a sufficiently large "O Ring" around the platter would be.....:scratch2:

There is a guy selling damping rings (look to just be large O-rings that go around the perimeter of a 12" platter) for Idler TT platters on Ebay.

According to posts on LencoHeaven, they ae quite effective. Cheap, too.

 

[jeremyjustic]

I have the large o-rings on my 401. I got them here in town for $4. Worked great! Really tightened up the highs. The drummers hi-hats went from a siss siss siss sounds to a tis tis tis sounds. They gave me a much more focused sound for next to nothing. Worth looking into, won't cost you much to find out for yourself!

 

[DominicL]

It all boils down to something I call "the big T" or "IT" or "PT" (I won't say more, at this point

Your killing me now! If you send me a private message as to what you mean, I promise not to tell or say any more about the magic!

But for now:

I agree about the over engineering of the Garrard 301/401, td124, but I did not think that was the magic of the idler wheel. My Weathers is the epitome of under engineering with its light platter, plastic bearings etc., but still sounds less smeared, more realistic, and has better instrument separation than my belt drives. I can actually hear the beginning and end of each bass guitar note, drum stroke and so on; as long as the rubber wheel is touching the platter!! Experimenting with my Denon dd as we speak. I am guessing the result will be the same once I get the idler spinning on the platter.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

That accuracy of timing is one of the essential elements of a good idler drive. Some of the best direct drives also get this element right. One of the other is that ability to handle massed strings and big bands without sacrificing their impact and slam. Some of the most critical elements of PRAT (Pace, Rhythm, and Timing). Too many belt driven designs smear the timing and starting and stopping of instruments. Which colors the sound.

 

[DominicL]

Agree. My belt and direct drives have been a disappointment. My Duals beat them. Have two 1219s,a 1009,a 1015, and a 1229. They are all good. My 1229 sounds the best. It has a Shure M91ED with a JICO stylus-the $35 one.Ran a Shure M55 off the 1219 which was not as good. The second best is my first 1009. Heavy platter with no cue or antiskate. Just put a Radio Shack 1000 cart on it. It was their M91ED. Its a plain jane but it sounds great. That cart came off my Dual 1015. sounds better on the 1009. Rim drives are the best sounding on my systems.

Good luck with the Weathers. Remeber them in the Allied and Lafeyette Catalogs: Always wanted one. Enjoy. Off to bed. Always end the day spinning an LP. Got the Dual 1229 there as my daily player. Spun some 45s on the 1009 in the man cave stacked on the tall 45 spindle I got with the 1015.after work today. Beats cutting grass! Best hobby ever.

Re weathers: There is a surplus store in Nebraska that still has some for sale. The two motor model no less!

Re: best hobby..you betcha!! I start and end my day with a record. Loved doing that as a kid and still enjoy after 40 something years!!

 

[jeremyjustic]

I have always felt the "magic" is the massive motor in direct contact with the platter. No belt to stretch and smear the sound. I know when I listen to my belt drives I feel like I can hear the belt lag, it just sounds lazy.

Really I think the coolest thing about transcription turntables is the fact that they were used in radio, my Garrard 401 was a BBC table and I got the russco from a guy who owned three stations in the 60's and 70's. I love to think about how many people have listened to music played on these very turntables, they were used 24/7 365 days a year! Totally cool

 

[flavio81]

SSsssssshhhhhhh! You are coming perilously close to letting slip one of the most closely-guarded secrets among the audio cognoscenti, the true basis of the potential superiority of idler-drive technology.

:thmbsp:

Hush hush, fellows. Let's guard this secret.

 

[DominicL]

:thmbsp:

Hush hush, fellows. Let's guard this secret.

Done!

Guess I already said too much.

On to the next cheap giant killer. Good to see there are people with good sonic sense here!!

 

[Dandy]

Sanc, yes this is making me wonder if TD150s, TD16xs or TD125s can be converted to idler drive. I'd love to make use of the cast chassis, heavy platter and good bearing of my TD125!

Arkay, your GT2000 is hardly a budget sleeper. Awesome deck, but of course out of reach for most, including me. I like the idea of finding/developing cheap giant killers. Strangely, Lencos are still underrated.

I've not found much benefit from O-ring dampers on a Garrard 401, and they obscure the strobe.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

TD 150, 160, and 125 decks have value in nice working order as is. But being a suspended deck, not the easiest to convert to idler.

 

[DominicL]

Not a budget turntable, but the idler on the outside works on Direct Drive as well. As long as you can find one without the strobe indentations. I love tinkering with these things! Next thing for this is the right sized shaft and proper mounting for the idler wheel.

Now I can have my cake and eat it too!

 

[Andyman]

I've got that same Denon and a raft of parts harvest Duals here. I'll have to give that a try!!

 

[marc mc]

That accuracy of timing is one of the essential elements of a good idler drive. Some of the best direct drives also get this element right. One of the other is that ability to handle massed strings and big bands without sacrificing their impact and slam. Some of the most critical elements of PRAT (Pace, Rhythm, and Timing). Too many belt driven designs smear the timing and starting and stopping of instruments. Which colors the sound.

Great post, I heard this within 30 seconds of the first song when I finished my Lenco. And it is so obvious when I hear a belt drive now.

Belt drives use inertia and idlers use drive torque.

marc mc

 

[Daniel Walte]

and the best kept secret is the belt to idler drives <dual drive> like my TRIO 350<kenwood> shares with the thorens 124. No I wouldn`t take 2 grand for this TRIO. its the best modded sounding turntable of the three I own.

 

[Sanc]

TD 150, 160, and 125 decks have value in nice working order as is. But being a suspended deck, not the easiest to convert to idler.

It is definitely possible with a mod styled like the one here, only mounted where the original motor is meant to be and a idler wheel with a diameter fit to the sub platter. All you would need to do is set the suspension so the wheel touches the proper part of the sub platter. The main problem I can think of is footfalls. Footfalls aren't a problem with the belts, but it may present issues with an idler wheel moving around quite a bit.

 

[DominicL]

and the best kept secret is the belt to idler drives <dual drive> like my TRIO 350<kenwood> shares with the thorens 124. No I wouldn`t take 2 grand for this TRIO. its the best modded sounding turntable of the three I own.

I have the 350's cousin, the 4021. It would be my prime table if the platter was not warped. (who am I kidding, they are all my prime turntables..I just rotate every now and again...and again and again and again!) I agree, especially now, that the belt idler combo has the best of all worlds. Looking to pick up a garrard z2000b. Belt idler drive with the funky zero tracking error arm!

 

[DominicL]

I've got that same Denon and a raft of parts harvest Duals here. I'll have to give that a try!!

Careful with the finish on the base!!

 

[Dandy]

I agree that the belt to idler drive is best of all. That's why I'm spending a lot of time refurbishing a TD135 that someone sold to me after a dumpster rescue. It's got the torque, but also a certain sweetness.