That accuracy of timing is one of the essential elements of a good idler drive. Some of the best direct drives also get this element right. One of the other is that ability to handle massed strings and big bands without sacrificing their impact and slam. Some of the most critical elements of PRAT (Pace, Rhythm, and Timing). Too many belt driven designs smear the timing and starting and stopping of instruments. Which colors the sound.
To some extent, ALL belt drives do a bit of smearing. Top-end manufacturers try to overcome this with massive platters, using intertia ("flywheel effect") to reduce the smearing. There is still a difference between a big flywheel and an idler wheel, though, and therein lies the inherent limitation of belt drives. (One big clue given away there.
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Sanc, yes this is making me wonder if TD150s, TD16xs or TD125s can be converted to idler drive. I'd love to make use of the cast chassis, heavy platter and good bearing of my TD125!
Why not? Work out the mechanics, and give it a try. Do try to make the initial experiments (at least) fully reversible, though. All types of turntables are a part of audio history, and worth preserving for what they are, and what they tell us about the evolution of the audio industry.
Arkay, your GT2000 is hardly a budget sleeper. Awesome deck, but of course out of reach for most, including me. I like the idea of finding/developing cheap giant killers. Strangely, Lencos are still underrated.
I hope I didn't imply that the GT-2000 was a "budget sleeper." I don't consider it that. But in a way, it could be described that way. It's not cheap, although anything comparable sonically (except perhaps a dramatically modified "Giant Killer") would cost several times as much, and therefore it is a "budget" TT for someone seeking "high end" sound. It's not a sleeper at all in Japan, but elsewhere I think it is still largely outside the awareness of most hobbyists, since few examples were exported outside of Japan.
Neither is it a "giant killer". The "GT" stands for "Gigantic and Tremendous" (Don't blame me --that's what the label plate on the front of it says!), and it is, IMO, both literally and figuratively a "giant"; it makes a good target to aim at, when trying to create a "giant killer" TT, as it "kills' most so-called higher-end TTs already (but not the super-exotics).
However, a Lenco IS a "giant killer" when sufficiently well-modified, because --after sufficient modification-- it can compete in the same general level as a GT-2000, starting from a much lover price point. Jean Nantais makes his "reference" Lencos with plinths in the neighborhood of 100+ pounds, making them even heavier/more massive than the GTs. They are competitive in a few other important aspects, as well, although not even close in a few others (like rotational stability). Sonically, there is no question that a properly mounted Lenco is a "giant killer" TT, IMO. The key point is, the Lencos are still quite available and affordable (compared to the GTs and others of similar quality), yet can be made to compete at a much, much level; hence, "Giant Killer" applies to them.
I've not found much benefit from O-ring dampers on a Garrard 401, and they obscure the strobe.
The key test of whether an O-ring damper will help is how much the platter "rings" (resonates) like a tuning fork when struck. If you get a quick, dull "thud" or abrupt "plink", it won't benefit much. If you get a bell-like, extended "ring-g-g-g" sound, then it should help. The hardness and tightness of the ring will affect how well it damps; sometimes using two or three rings can be best, but at other times one seems to work optimally. That probably has to do with the resonant frequency of the particular platter. If the O-ring you have doesn't help much, try a tightly-stretched drive belt. If that doesn't help, maybe your platter isn't ringing much to begin with.
Alternatives to O-rings are coatings of RTV rubber or automotive under-coating or Dynamat. Each has its pros and cons, but I'd start with the O-ring, as it is the easiest to try, non-messy and totally and easily reversible.
Not a budget turntable, but the idler on the outside works on Direct Drive as well. As long as you can find one without the strobe indentations. I love tinkering with these things! Next thing for this is the right sized shaft and proper mounting for the idler wheel.
Now I can have my cake and eat it too!
The only thing to be aware of here is that the platter on a DD is connected directly to the motor shaft, and effectively forms part of the motor. As it turns, then, it may be (depending on the specific motor design) affected by the magnetic fields of the motor's fixed magnets. In this case, you'll need to make sure your idler delivers enough torque to somehow even those fluctuating fields out. This is done electronically with the DDs when powered, but wouldn't be when they're being driven by an external motor. If you can spin the platter of your DD and the motion feels smooth and completely "cogless" with the power off, then you should have no problem converting it to external idler-wheel drive, if you wish to.
Great post, I heard this within 30 seconds of the first song when I finished my Lenco. And it is so obvious when I hear a belt drive now.
Belt drives use inertia and idlers use drive torque.
marc mc
Ooooh, very good "bingo" observation, again very close to giving away the great secret!
Anyone should be able to hear the difference, as you noted, within 30 seconds or so.
and the best kept secret is the belt to idler drives <dual drive> like my TRIO 350<kenwood> shares with the thorens 124. No I wouldn`t take 2 grand for this TRIO. its the best modded sounding turntable of the three I own.
The TRIO is a very fine TT; congratulations on finding one of these fairly rare beasts! :thmbsp:
WHY would this sound as good as, or better than, a pure idler-drive TT? Does it always? Why might it be better than a belt drive? Is it always? Have you experimented to find out? Answer these questions adequately, and you'll know the secret, too. :yes:
It is definitely possible with a mod styled like the one here, only mounted where the original motor is meant to be and a idler wheel with a diameter fit to the sub platter. All you would need to do is set the suspension so the wheel touches the proper part of the sub platter. The main problem I can think of is footfalls. Footfalls aren't a problem with the belts, but it may present issues with an idler wheel moving around quite a bit.
Footfalls wouldn't be a problem with an idler drive, provided the same precaution is taken what is with the footfall-resistant belt drives. In fact, footfalls should be LESS of a problem with properly-implemented idler drives, for reasons of basic physics/mechanics. It's obvious what needs to be done here, but once it's done you'll be back to a more "pure" idler-drive model.
This thread could one day be seen as the start of a revolution in the vinyl world (pun intended
).
