Daniel Walte
Active Member
this site gives a lot of info on tweeking:yes:
http://www.theanalogdept.com/tuning_arms_and_carts.htm
http://www.theanalogdept.com/tuning_arms_and_carts.htm
Idler wheel "magic"...
- Thread starter DominicL
- Start date
Daniel Walte
Active Member
Dominicl stated above:
IF, however, the improvement comes not from the simple presence of the idler wheel against the platter side, then the improvement comes from something else, not damping vertical vibrations
Maybe instead of damping its just increasing the speed stability which in turn lets more music in or in other words: when all else fails then just the facts remain:yes:
I hope someone else trys Dominicl`s mod on the idler free wheeling the outside cuz if it works I will definitely do some serious mods on my dd tables
IF, however, the improvement comes not from the simple presence of the idler wheel against the platter side, then the improvement comes from something else, not damping vertical vibrations
Maybe instead of damping its just increasing the speed stability which in turn lets more music in or in other words: when all else fails then just the facts remain:yes:
I hope someone else trys Dominicl`s mod on the idler free wheeling the outside cuz if it works I will definitely do some serious mods on my dd tables
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Daniel Walte
Active Member
To John VF as he stated:Sanity.
Any of the drive systems can get you there if properly implemented, and if you aren't hearing the beginning and end of percussion hits, a 3-d soundstage and intact rhythm, you are not listening to them properly implemented. Beyond that, idler drive, while capable of sounding great is also capable of sounding incredibly mediocre. I have two unmodified Bogen/Lenco L-70s to prove this to anybody....in comparison to some top-flight DD and belt drive turntables. Having fun is one thing, leading a bunch of horses to water that might not be there with wild and untrue statements makes some people into bitter hobbyists when they believe the hype, and its not there when they're done.
And if an idler rotating on you platter clears things up you had a ringing, resonate, platter- another instance of a drive system not being properly implemented with the proper build quality in the first place. There are other ways to cure that
I say if your idler tables aren`t sounding good as your others then maybe since they aren`t meaning so much to you you can try to do some mods and join the group discussion proper:thmbsp:
Any of the drive systems can get you there if properly implemented, and if you aren't hearing the beginning and end of percussion hits, a 3-d soundstage and intact rhythm, you are not listening to them properly implemented. Beyond that, idler drive, while capable of sounding great is also capable of sounding incredibly mediocre. I have two unmodified Bogen/Lenco L-70s to prove this to anybody....in comparison to some top-flight DD and belt drive turntables. Having fun is one thing, leading a bunch of horses to water that might not be there with wild and untrue statements makes some people into bitter hobbyists when they believe the hype, and its not there when they're done.
And if an idler rotating on you platter clears things up you had a ringing, resonate, platter- another instance of a drive system not being properly implemented with the proper build quality in the first place. There are other ways to cure that
I say if your idler tables aren`t sounding good as your others then maybe since they aren`t meaning so much to you you can try to do some mods and join the group discussion proper:thmbsp:
Daniel Walte
Active Member
no one here is leading anyone to water. WE all are grownups with our own minds and know anything we do is of our own making
The case for idlers is widely documented, including what it takes to minimize their inherent weaknesses while maximizing their inherent goodness. Lenco Heaven is a good place to start (an excellent place, actually). The reason I have two idlers is that they're earmarked for being set into massy layered plinths and having their idlers rebuilt and newer/better arms added. I'm all for people having fun and experimenting but much of what has been said about the other drive systems in this thread is false. I'm not a fanboy for any one drive system, FWIW.
Carry on. My intent isn't to argue its to say to somebody about to follow you guys on this chase that the beliefs here aren't universally held or experienced with all idlers.
marc mc
Super Member
John it is clear and has been pointed out numerous times that an unmodded Lenco is a dog. But try to understand the reason is not the drive system. If a Lenco was a car you would throw everything but the motor out!!
I had one of these things unmodded years ago and did not even fell it sounded good enough to mod at all. I and numourous other have admitted that error.
Your point is pointless no matter how many threads you post it on.
marc mc
How did you come to this conclusion? Do you know what more poles means in an electric motor? It's a count of the permanent magnets that the electromagnetic portion pushes against. If you have 4 poles that means that at 4 points around the circle the motor has a "foothold" to push against and then coast to the next one. If you have 16 poles then there are more footholds and less coasting.
Try an experiment (in your head if you don't want to leave the chair). Get on your bike and ride. For a given speed pedal constantly and count your cadence (how many pedal revolutions per minute). Then try to maintain the same speed but pedaling at 1/4 the cadence. Which one gives you a more constant speed, i.e. which has less wow and flutter?
This isn't an exact analogy because the constant pedaling is something that can't be implemented in an electric motor but the ratio of pedaling cadence will equate to a 16-pole to 4-pole motor.
-self edit of me getting caught up in arrogant bs-
I'm just pointing out that idlers aren't perfect out of the box and have their own set of issues, and that if anybody is not hearing the clear beginning and ending of notes and doesn't have a 3d soundstage, that its not necessarily because they don't have an idler.
I gotta say I don't understand the physics of the whole "music smeared by inertia and/or belt stretch" shortcoming of belt drives. Can a 1.5 kG platter really be audibly slowed down by the stylus encountering modulation of the groove? Isn't that like a mite knocking an elephant off of it's intended course? Or is the thought that the belt is continually stretching and retracting which I think would show in the wow & flutter numbers? Not calling BS here, just trying to understand the concept. I've never had the opportunity to hear one of these revered idlers, but I hope to sometime. I like them just because they look nearly bullet-proof.
dnewma04
The Healer
I've heard and owned most of the "best" idlers on the market through the years. The best of each format of turntable can be excellent, what I find bizarre are some of the statements made in the thread about belt drives like they have some sort of inherent limitation that will never allow them to compete with a proper idler. 5-6 years ago, I used to think that DDs couldn't be beat, then I thought idlers couldn't be beat, now I think that all three can provide performance potential that exceeds the medium. Experience has kicked my bias in the nuts repeatedly. There is nothing magical or mystical about what's going on with any drive method.
dnewma04
The Healer
I think I have an idea for a new turntable drive system. To avoid smearing, I'll use a gear driven motor system. If it's good enough for record lathes, it's gotta be good enough for hifi. And it wouldn't suffer from all of the smearing that an Idler does with it's lossy rubber contact point.
Pio1980
AK Member
I don't think anyone does that in the "modern" LP era, Thorens tried it as an "improvement" before going BD finding the the gear drive rumble insurmountable. I once had a Philco 78 changer with a spindle worm drive that worked OK in the 1940s console that contained it, I the changer was designed by the RadioBar engineers after Philco bought them out to gain their record player expertise IIRC.
So we'd be trading idler smear for motor cogging. Lovely. Wasn't cogging supposed to be the cardinal sin of direct-drive systems?
John, the tonearm on the bogen b62 is the culprit, not the drive system.
I think the drive system is perfectly capable (or will be, eventually) but I need to redo the idler wheel and sink the vibration of the motor. It's rumble city right now. The arm isn't horrible but I disagree with those who say it has a ton of hidden potential based upon what I hear (the arm, not the table). It's simply ok, and I've tried it with carts that should work with its weight, the DL-103 and Shure M3D. My not-entirely-open-mind is a symptom of being burned many times by hype-driven wild goose chases. They've made me cynical towards all of them, though I'm sure there are some excellent options out there that i haven't tried.
Daniel Walte
Active Member
to RayW `s comment: How did you come to this conclusion? Do you know what more poles means in an electric motor? It's a count of the permanent magnets that the electromagnetic portion pushes against. If you have 4 poles that means that at 4 points around the circle the motor has a "foothold" to push against and then coast to the next one. If you have 16 poles then there are more footholds and less coasting.
Try an experiment (in your head if you don't want to leave the chair). Get on your bike and ride. For a given speed pedal constantly and count your cadence (how many pedal revolutions per minute). Then try to maintain the same speed but pedaling at 1/4 the cadence. Which one gives you a more constant speed, i.e. which has less wow and flutter?
This isn't an exact analogy because the constant pedaling is something that can't be implemented in an electric motor but the ratio of pedaling cadence will equate to a 16-pole to 4-pole motor
Well I read this on studying motors on the internet
And the electricity is divided going into the coils of the motor 16 times instead of 4 coils, hece those 4 poles receive more constant electricity<more energy> than the split up into 16 motor. more inertia has to created as each pole of the 4 pole motor is receiving more juice
more juice in each of the 4 windings of the motor has to create more power at each of the poles for power, however the 16 pole motors and 20 pole dd motors can handle more weight for the platter than 4 pole smaller motors
Try an experiment (in your head if you don't want to leave the chair). Get on your bike and ride. For a given speed pedal constantly and count your cadence (how many pedal revolutions per minute). Then try to maintain the same speed but pedaling at 1/4 the cadence. Which one gives you a more constant speed, i.e. which has less wow and flutter?
This isn't an exact analogy because the constant pedaling is something that can't be implemented in an electric motor but the ratio of pedaling cadence will equate to a 16-pole to 4-pole motor
Well I read this on studying motors on the internet
And the electricity is divided going into the coils of the motor 16 times instead of 4 coils, hece those 4 poles receive more constant electricity<more energy> than the split up into 16 motor. more inertia has to created as each pole of the 4 pole motor is receiving more juice
more juice in each of the 4 windings of the motor has to create more power at each of the poles for power, however the 16 pole motors and 20 pole dd motors can handle more weight for the platter than 4 pole smaller motors
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DominicL
Active Member
John, an o ring of proper diameter in place of original rubber will fix the drive. I have done this on my two b62s. Will post pic tonight!
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