Daniel Walte
Active Member
might also add that the idler brings out hidden music that you can`t hear with the other drives, to me anyway and when you hear something that normally wasn`t heard with other tables it sometimes drops your jaw in awe!
Idler wheel "magic"...
- Thread starter DominicL
- Start date
jeremyjustic
Analog
We of the Idler drive set tend to be wild and bizarre!
jeremyjustic
Analog
Jeremy, thanks for the tip on narrower O rings for damping. My Garrard 401 is playing right now with the larger rings and I thought the strobe light was out, till I stood up! (This tt was beautifully rebuilt by Dr Martin Bastin, who supplied the O rings too, and it performs very well.)
Dominic, you are asking interesting questions. Could be the next big thing for Linn and Rega!
Yeah no problem! I got the sizes he was selling and went to my local o-ring gasket supply place and picked up both. Honestly I have no ideawhy they would suggest the larger ones, they don't fit very well on the platter and look a little silly to me, the small ones work better and look much better. I posted some pics and more details into my 401 platter dampening exploits, I'm on my phone right now so I can't give you the link, I also made up a leather platter mat, the o-ring/leather mat combo is great, I think I got $10 into the platter tweaks, worth checking out IMHO.
Dandy
Addicted Member
I don't think anyone has come near a conclusion yet. We are just reporting on some experiments and thinking together about possibilities, e.g. is it possible to convert a suspended subplatter belt drive into a non-suspended idler. Could it be done? What would be the benefits?, etc. Plus a little on damping resonances. Just your basic scientific method.
Daniel Walte
Active Member
pic of heavens gift to my ears
with an idler on either the inside or outside I agree with gusten:
vertically more stable and less vibrations in the vertical plane IMO. Very much depending on normal bearings, the diameter are usually far too small to act rigid enough. The wheel will help in this. I hope the experiment of putting a wheel outside to idle along <no pun intended> is successful!
with an idler on either the inside or outside I agree with gusten:
vertically more stable and less vibrations in the vertical plane IMO. Very much depending on normal bearings, the diameter are usually far too small to act rigid enough. The wheel will help in this. I hope the experiment of putting a wheel outside to idle along <no pun intended> is successful!
Daniel Walte
Active Member
from what I have read the more poles a motor has the less effective torque a motor has so all of us who have the old 4 pole motors instead of the 16 or more poles that some motors have, will see better wow and flutter and s/n ratio than the big poles. it makes since and I verified this by checking the kenwood<trio> stable of idler/belt drives. At least for the kenwood belt/idler line this is holding true.
Daniel Walte
Active Member
now I expect to get yelled at by some but I am going to share with all you some of the mods I have been doing for years on all the tables I fix up.
1. I put roofing tar for dampening on the underneath of all my platters for dampening.I have also used dynamat on the guts of the base sides also.
2. I paint a thin line of paint between headshell and up to the swivel area of the arm itself<this cancels ringing going up the arm. I have had success using the Teflon tape around the before but prefer the paint method because you can`t see it and I hated those white arms.
3. The motor plate bottom I also use a thin application of the old roofin tar
1. I put roofing tar for dampening on the underneath of all my platters for dampening.I have also used dynamat on the guts of the base sides also.
2. I paint a thin line of paint between headshell and up to the swivel area of the arm itself<this cancels ringing going up the arm. I have had success using the Teflon tape around the before but prefer the paint method because you can`t see it and I hated those white arms.
3. The motor plate bottom I also use a thin application of the old roofin tar
Daniel Walte
Active Member
http://audio-heritage.jp/TRIO-KENWOOD/player/pc-350.html
this site has the idler/belt specs for the kenwoods if any want to check the specs
If you check the different specs you will see that the 350 uses a 4 pole motor and has better specs than the the pc 400 that has a 16 pole motor and a platter that weighs 2 pounds more
so when they gave the kp 4021 a more pole motor they had to compensate by giving it a heavier platter or is it the reverse? I have to laugh at this as it seems they put their shoes on backwards
this site has the idler/belt specs for the kenwoods if any want to check the specs
If you check the different specs you will see that the 350 uses a 4 pole motor and has better specs than the the pc 400 that has a 16 pole motor and a platter that weighs 2 pounds more
so when they gave the kp 4021 a more pole motor they had to compensate by giving it a heavier platter or is it the reverse? I have to laugh at this as it seems they put their shoes on backwards
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Daniel Walte
Active Member
I have also put in a 100 volt q type oil filled capacitor to replace the old one on the 350
Arkay
Lunatic Member
Most great discoveries and innovations arise from people who are at least a little "wild and bizarre" by the standards of their time (and place). These are the people who tend to think sufficiently "outside the box" to see things that others who plod along in well-trodden mental ruts are less likely to see.
The downside of this, of course, is that truly insane wackos who "discover" stupid untruths also are found in areas "outside the box" and in the realm of the "wild and bizarre". One just hopes that one is the right KIND of "wild and bizarre"!
I have come to one conclusion, but it came after some real research, thought and experimentation. I'm not revealing it outright, but giving hints and pointers for others who wish to know what it is, asking a lot of questions in a semi-Socratic approach. I'm hoping that others will come eventually to the same conclusion, in enough numbers that I can assume it's confirmed/correct, OR that they'll discover a flaw in the thinking, or some alternative explanation that makes more sense. I know of a couple of knowledgeable people who agree with it, or came up with the same conclusion on their own, already... but that doesn't mean that it is definitely true; there is at least one other possibility I'm still working on eliminating. Nothing is certain, without enough evidence to support it, and the absence of any evidence to refute it; I'm not right, just because I think so at this time.
You are jumping to one very plausible, but as-yet unproven conclusion. The idler wheel does help reduce vibrations in the vertical plane...but it does other things, too. Which of them is the most important? Which results in the desirable improvements? Is it the "vertical damping" aspect, as you propose?
There is one way to test this "vertical plane vibrations" hypothesis. Try putting an UNPOWERED idler wheel --a free-spinning idler wheel not being driven by a motor-- against a platter that is being driven by a normal, non-idler-wheel method. Such a wheel would act the same, in terms of damping vibration in the vertical plane, but it wouldn't be doing the other things an idler wheel normally does. Compare the sound with and without the idler wheel present, and with and without it being powered. (You might want to add one more check, which is with and without the wheel being attached to the motor, both powered and unpowered, as the motor contact adds another variable(s).) If the sound improvement comes the same, whether or not the
idler is in contact with the motor, and whether or not the motor is driving it, then the improvement must be due to damping the vertical vibrations. IF, however, the improvement comes not from the simple presence of the idler wheel against the platter side, then the improvement comes from something else, not damping vertical vibrations.
If the damping of vertical vibrations alone is all that is needed for the sonic improvements, then all one has to do is add an idler wheel to the side of the platter. If that is true, the next experiment would be to see if two wheels are better than one, or three wheels better than two. Also, is a fat wheel, which would provide more resistance in the vertical plane, better than a thin one? Traditionally, people have assumed thinner edges were better than thick, as there was less scope for transmitting vibration from the motor. It is critical to find out if the motor driving the wheel is more important, or just the presence of a wheel to dampen vertical vibrations. The conclusion will have dramatic impact upon the optimal TT design.
(There is also a relevant (and once you realize it, obvious) "thought experiment" that is useful here, if anyone can think of it... but I'll leave it as another puzzle, just for fun.
If you think of it, you'll realize the answer to the above, without actually having to do the experimentation. You won't think of it, however, unless you have sufficient knowledge of different idler-drive designs and their relative performances.)This is useful, solid data. You're on a good track here to some good insights and making some significant TT design decisions.
Manufacturers have been "putting their shoes on backwards" for a few decades, because they didn't realize enough of the full picture of why things were working as they were. LOL
That is not meant as a criticism, though: SOME things they fully understood, and did very well. They were smart engineers and we couldn't have the audio we do, without their brilliance... but one or two key things escaped the turntable engineers. Knowledge tends to build over time that way, one step here, another step there, each generation standing on the shoulders of the brilliant people who preceded them. It's easy to learn what others have already figured out, but not so easy to think of the stuff in the first place!
I wouldn't yell at you.
I'd pat you on the back and say "congratulations" for making some smart improvements to your TTs. :thmbsp: Everything you describe is likely to create sonic improvements. There are more and other steps you could add to these, too, to squeeze out even better performance. That's the fun part of DIY audio; there is virtually no end to how far you can carry things, and keep on improving things. Some steps make bigger differences than others, but the sum of cumulative small improvements can add up to big differences in total.
Arkay
Lunatic Member
For those discussing adding idler-drives to suspended TTs, step back a little and consider the basics.
WHY suspend a TT? Why do some belt drives sound so much better suspended? What other characteristics of those TTs make them work well?
Then think about the better-sounding idler-drive designs. To my knowledge, none of them are suspended. Why not? What difference does it make?
What are the normal explanations given for these approaches, and what is each of them NOT considering (overlooking or ignoring?).
How can you combine the best of both designs, and which aspects should be abandoned --or greatly altered-- along the way, to get the best results?
If you get down to the simplest factor(s) that make(s) the biggest difference(s), the right approach will become rather obvious. Think this through, and you'll know what to do.
WHY suspend a TT? Why do some belt drives sound so much better suspended? What other characteristics of those TTs make them work well?
Then think about the better-sounding idler-drive designs. To my knowledge, none of them are suspended. Why not? What difference does it make?
What are the normal explanations given for these approaches, and what is each of them NOT considering (overlooking or ignoring?).
How can you combine the best of both designs, and which aspects should be abandoned --or greatly altered-- along the way, to get the best results?
If you get down to the simplest factor(s) that make(s) the biggest difference(s), the right approach will become rather obvious. Think this through, and you'll know what to do.
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DominicL
Active Member
Arkay, please look closely at my first post! Been there, done that with added idler on outside of belt driven platter. Please look at the pictures. Pretty please with sugar on top!!! It does make a difference!! I just want somebody else to try it!!
Btw, at this point I would pay your membership just to hear your thoughts on this via pm, or email. I knew I was on to something. Probably not the first to do it but I don't care. Good to know the brain is still working! Lol
Btw, at this point I would pay your membership just to hear your thoughts on this via pm, or email. I knew I was on to something. Probably not the first to do it but I don't care. Good to know the brain is still working! Lol
DominicL
Active Member
And Gusten, I'm not sure about your bearing theory. The weathers turntable has a plastic bushing that the lightweight platter rides in and still sounds excellent. IMHO, the rubber wheel rotating on the platter has all to do with eliminating the bad vibrations. And that's why the clarity (or lack of!) of the recording shines through.
Daniel Walte
Active Member
actually the kenwood kp-4021 is the table that they went to the 16 pole motor not the pc 400 as I stated earlier, sorry. The pc 400 has almost the same specs and uses a 4 pole motor and uses the same 4 lb platter, sorry I was up all night researching this and made a mistake.:sigh:
Daniel Walte
Active Member
Arkay stated: There are more and other steps you could add to these, too, to squeeze out even better performance.
I have done more things like putting foam between the cartridge and headshell and other things. If their are more things Arkay please share them with the group here that's what this is all about. You keep asking why improvements are working, why not explain this all to us?
I have done more things like putting foam between the cartridge and headshell and other things. If their are more things Arkay please share them with the group here that's what this is all about. You keep asking why improvements are working, why not explain this all to us?
DominicL
Active Member
Also, I would not try to reinvent the wheel (pun intended!) by converting a belt drive turntable to an idler drive. Just let the idler wheel rotate on the outside of the platter and hear the difference! It works. Really it does! Someone please try this to confirm or prove me wrong! I would like to hear opinions from somebody else who has tried this.
Again, mount an extra idler on the outside if the platter so it rotates with the platter. Does not have to be a giant idler. However, when I figure out how to mount it, a russco idler will be happily rotating on the OUTSIDE of my platter(s).
Again, mount an extra idler on the outside if the platter so it rotates with the platter. Does not have to be a giant idler. However, when I figure out how to mount it, a russco idler will be happily rotating on the OUTSIDE of my platter(s).
Sanity.
Any of the drive systems can get you there if properly implemented, and if you aren't hearing the beginning and end of percussion hits, a 3-d soundstage and intact rhythm, you are not listening to them properly implemented. Beyond that, idler drive, while capable of sounding great is also capable of sounding incredibly mediocre. I have two unmodified Bogen/Lenco L-70s to prove this to anybody....in comparison to some top-flight DD and belt drive turntables. Having fun is one thing, leading a bunch of horses to water that might not be there with wild and untrue statements makes some people into bitter hobbyists when they believe the hype, and its not there when they're done.
And if an idler rotating on you platter clears things up you had a ringing, resonate, platter- another instance of a drive system not being properly implemented with the proper build quality in the first place. There are other ways to cure that.
Daniel Walte
Active Member
link to Japanese site that shows the idlers for kenwood/trio and their specs
http://audio-heritage.jp/TRIO-KENWOOD/player/index3.html
http://audio-heritage.jp/TRIO-KENWOOD/player/index3.html
DominicL
Active Member
I'm taking a short cur here..doing this from my cell..
Arkay quoted..
There is one way to test this "vertical plane vibrations" hypothesis. Try putting an UNPOWERED idler wheel --a free-spinning idler wheel not being driven by a motor-- against a platter that is being driven by a normal, non-idler-wheel method. Such a wheel would act the same, in terms of damping vibration in the vertical plane, but it wouldn't be doing the other things an idler wheel normally does. Compare the sound with and without the idler wheel present, and with and without it being powered. (You might want to add one more check, which is with and without the wheel being attached to the motor, both powered and unpowered, as the motor contact adds another variable(s).) If the sound improvement comes the same, whether or not the
idler is in contact with the motor, and whether or not the motor is driving it, then the improvement must be due to damping the vertical vibrations. IF, however, the improvement comes not from the simple presence of the idler wheel against the platter side, then the improvement comes from something else, not damping vertical vibrations.
I DID THIS IN MY ORIGINAL POST!! Please read it, Arkay! Lol
Arkay quoted..
There is one way to test this "vertical plane vibrations" hypothesis. Try putting an UNPOWERED idler wheel --a free-spinning idler wheel not being driven by a motor-- against a platter that is being driven by a normal, non-idler-wheel method. Such a wheel would act the same, in terms of damping vibration in the vertical plane, but it wouldn't be doing the other things an idler wheel normally does. Compare the sound with and without the idler wheel present, and with and without it being powered. (You might want to add one more check, which is with and without the wheel being attached to the motor, both powered and unpowered, as the motor contact adds another variable(s).) If the sound improvement comes the same, whether or not the
idler is in contact with the motor, and whether or not the motor is driving it, then the improvement must be due to damping the vertical vibrations. IF, however, the improvement comes not from the simple presence of the idler wheel against the platter side, then the improvement comes from something else, not damping vertical vibrations.
I DID THIS IN MY ORIGINAL POST!! Please read it, Arkay! Lol
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