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Idler wheel "magic"...

found this on the internet about tonearms:So what happens to all that energy transmitted into the arm wand? Some of it gets dissipated into the material of the arm wand, some lost in the coupling between the metal and whatever it touches such as the counterweight, the cable and so on. Most of the energy though will travel up the arm wand (which is normally a tube just like a woodwind or brass instrument) at a resonant frequency and the harmonics of that frequency till it meets a point of resistance, which will normally be the bearing where it will bounce and reflect or refract back again. So again, under our microscope imagine what is happening to the arm wand and the bearing. The waves are both traveling through the material of the wand and over its surfaces. At the same time the entire arm wand is shaking, that is moving back and forth and side to side. When it meets the balls in the bearing it will bounce off them and cause them to bounce against their bearing race. This is known as bearing chatter. In theory and with many caveats, the tighter the fit and the tolerances in the bearing, the less it will chatter.

If you were interested in measurements, we could show you all this in graphical form by measuring the actual turntables in question. Most of this stuff readily shows up with a little effort. :)

Well, I don't know about measuring all the suggested bouncing, but tonearm resonances, problems with bearings, rumble, etc all do. :)
 
I`m just interested in sharing any info that I know or have read, everyone has their own opinions and I don`t want to offend anyone here and if I have I am truly sorry. But when other people ask something I respond. I personally find that people are here to share idea`s. Thats all they are and if someone can use them to help themselves , so be it. We as grownups decide what we learn and how we will use it and whether we agree with the passed on info provided. nuff said:yes:
 
Speaking of which...was it just any old O-ring you used on the idler for the B-62? I have two of them, and one I wanted to keep fairly stock but neither of my idler wheels are ideal, but one is really bad, all hardened. I should probably just get a metal one but anything will help in the meantime, as I've been wanting to use it with a strapped M3D as a mono deck.
 
John,
Have Ed Crockett-Vintage Electronics, or, Terrys Rubber Roller, put a new rubber tire on it. O-Rings quite often have seams, or, are not perfectly round. That produces noise.
Either Ed or Terry will make them perfect for you.
If you do try a DIY fix with an o-ring, cut the old tire off the wheel, don't try to force it off, or you'll risk cracking the wheel.
 
Plastic are OK, if they spin true.
You can buy new wheels from Mirko for $75 - which is a touch-n-go scenario (slow service). Or get an old one from eBay, and they're not getting any cheaper! The old metal wheels still have good rubber; they used a good compound for them originally. Its probably best to buy an arm and wheel together, as there are two different size axles. Buying the arm and wheel ensures a good fit.
 
:yes:
I`m just interested in sharing any info that I know or have read, everyone has their own opinions and I don`t want to offend anyone here and if I have I am truly sorry. But when other people ask something I respond. I personally find that people are here to share idea`s. Thats all they are and if someone can use them to help themselves , so be it. We as grownups decide what we learn and how we will use it and whether we agree with the passed on info provided. nuff said:yes:

Well said, Daniel.. :yes:
 
Speaking of which...was it just any old O-ring you used on the idler for the B-62? I have two of them, and one I wanted to keep fairly stock but neither of my idler wheels are ideal, but one is really bad, all hardened. I should probably just get a metal one but anything will help in the meantime, as I've been wanting to use it with a strapped M3D as a mono deck.

John, I took the largest from the o ring kit (standard sae, not metric..i think) we have at work for machines and it worked. I had measured it but can't remember right now. My wheels for o rings are plastic but still works fine with new rubber on it. Maybe half a revolution and 8 lb platter is up to speed. Not perfect, but i cant justify 175 for titanium wheel yet until i hear it with a decent arm. You have me inspired now to do something with mine. Weird, I have two of them also . Sorry for lack of picture last night. Fell out early.. Ttyl..
 
What was that I asked in my original thread anyway? Lol. I am sure there were a few doubters when Jean Nantais mentioned his lenco sounded good rested on bricks while he was testing!
My theory is that the rubber rotating on the platter, NOT the supposed rotational stability supposedly provided by the idler driving the platter is what makes an idler drive sound like an idler drive. May not sound better to some but you can not tell me they sound the same. I think direct drive is more stable at holding speed than idlers. Actually, there just has to be a cushion as in rubber somewhere in the drive. Why the belt does not do this I do not know. Maybe not dense enough would be my theory. Metzner with there funky drive system has rubber sideways in there drive. Mine sounds great however if I look at it wrong it will slow down. Also, idler, belt combos come to mind too as sounded better to me than belt and direct drive. Mind you, my most expensive belt drives are only around $500 ish, so not high end by any means. Why does the rubber wheel make my mediocre belt and direct drives sound better. No, its not my setup so no need to go there. Please, with an open mind, answer, or try it and prove me wrong! Peace!
 
I'd think that a good idler TT would have the best speed stability of any of the systems on both a micro and macro level. I don't use or own one tho'.
 
Well, there is no stylus drag induced elastic belt rebounding and no error-correction cycle required to maintain speed as with DD. With the idler drive's motor armature flywheel momentum and the cushioned reduction drive it just powers thru drag loading.
 
Well, there is no stylus drag induced elastic belt rebounding and no error-correction cycle required to maintain speed as with DD. With the idler drive's motor armature flywheel momentum and the cushioned reduction drive it just powers thru drag loading.


It would seem that drag loading would be easy to measure. Has it ever been done?
 
There is a nice thread at Pink Fish Media about measuring speed stability. So far, as a whole, idlers have been the worst performing of the lot. Good belt drives seem to be measuring as well as anything, and the very good DDs do very well, too.
 
While my Lenco isn't modded I can get a good idea of speed stability on it. And it seems stable, and has a nice attack. But so does my VPI with close to 30lbs of platter/mat rotating. Interestingly, I put my heavy aftermarket copper/delrin mat on the Lenco and I had to help it get going...my VPI starts right up.
 
There is a nice thread at Pink Fish Media about measuring speed stability. So far, as a whole, idlers have been the worst performing of the lot. Good belt drives seem to be measuring as well as anything, and the very good DDs do very well, too.

Very good, anything specific?
 
Also, just to be clear, all of the technologies tend to have very good overall performance. Even the poor measuring turntables have stability that is more than likely better than our ability to perceive any issues.
 
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