DominicL
Active Member
Agreed. However, there are people who believe that it is. I am not one of them!
Idler wheel "magic"...
- Thread starter DominicL
- Start date
Agreed. However, there are people who believe that it is. I am not one of them!
totem
Addicted Member
There is a rather long thread on Agon regarding ultimate speed stability and
some TT are specifically named, DD included.
Search the Sutherland timeline device.
Note, whether this level of accuracy is able to be heard or not is up to the
individual to determine. Some readers may be disappointed.
DominicL
Active Member
My bogen starts right up with two platters on it! Whoever mentioned it re the o rings is correct. Not the best sonically.
DominicL
Active Member
In a primitive, non scientific way, yes. I have. The record brush from spin clean can stop all of my idlers dead in it tracks, while at the "approximate force" will not slow down the denon dp62 direct drive according to the quartz lock signal.
js1138
Super Member
I mean has anyone measured turntable speed deviation resulting from needle drop or varying drag?
gusten
Addicted Member
I guees that is how speed stability normally is measured. At least it is measured with a 3150Hz tone.
gusten
gusten
Addicted Member
Maybe, but it´s not that easy to know. In principle one has to evaluate this with the same table, while increasing stability.
gusten
dnewma04
The Healer
Fair enough. I can't disagree with that.
DominicL
Active Member
jeremyjustic
Analog
To be Fair John you are comparing a 40 year old unmodified design against a state of the art $6000 belt drive turntable. I wonder how that vpi would compare to something in the same price bracket like a shindo 301 or a EMT, or pit that lenco against something like a rega p3 or a thorens.
I am sure that vpi is very very nice, and you are completely correct that all three drive systems can produce great sound, you may just have to spend more to get the same results.
This has been a very interesting thread, I'm driving cross country right now and check in every stop, keep it up guys!!
dnewma04
The Healer
I suspect, and I don't know how I'd go about testing this, that some drag will actually increase speed stability. Having a bearing with too little friction tends to be a bad thing. Some mfgs will use grease rather than oil to increase drag for this reason. There are some people in that PFM thread using eddy currents to try to add some drag. Generally, a little drag has helped.
It goes a bit contrary to most peoples attempts to increase spin down lengths.
I'm only making that comparison because its the kind of thing that comes up in these discussions. "All belt drives have XX problem" and so forth. No, they don't all have XX problems. I think every drive system is capable of sounding similar if not indistinguishable from another depending on the context.
I wouldn't be shocked if a modified Garrard 301 or Lenco in a rumble/vibration-controlling context sounded almost exactly the same as the VPI, with a similar quality arm. I bought the VPI after falling in love with a similar sounding Empire but not wanting to go through the chore of turning it into something else that was no longer an Empire. And that's the gist of a lot of this....these modified tables are no longer what they once were. For the better, of course.
I don't have the $6k Classic. It wasn't available when I bought mine but as it is, I think the original Classic is a nicer looking table for my needs, and it was $4000 less.
jblnut
Don't Overthink It
I have been following this thread with some interest and I have some relevant info to share. I started down the turntable path a long time ago with Duals and still have a 1215 that I use for 78's. I currently have two turntables hooked up in my main system - one direct drive which might have been called "state of the art" (or close) 30 years ago. That would be the Yamaha PX-2. The other is a VPI Classic which although not state of the art, is certainly a very good performing belt drive. Both have LOMC carts on them (PX2-At OC9 and Classic - Denon DL-S1). The PX-2 is using a Pro-Ject Tube Box II SE and the Classic a Pass Labs Xono.
So, where I'm going with this is that I have two *totally* different setups here with nothing really in common except the LOMC part (belt vs. direct, linear vs. uni-pivot, tube vs SS preamp, etc). And yet what strikes me day after day listening to them is how *similar* they sound. Or perhaps better stated, how well they each "get out of the way" and just let me enjoy music.
I would offer that the proposed benefits of "rim drive" (of which VIP is certainly a proponent) would be subtle at best and perhaps close to indistinguishable in a direct comparison (same cart, same phono pre, same LP, same system, same day, A/B comparison).
This is not TOL and so we're not bound to "just accept that there must be a difference because someone hears one". I want to hear about someone who has heard (for example) two VPI's (one with the rim conversion) with everything else being equal in the same system. Can anyone say that they have heard such a comparison ?
My own experiences with radically different tables and phono sections tells me that there is not a whole lot to be gained (if at all) by changing only how the platter is rotated. Keep the speed stable and the rumble out of the way, and you're done. How you do that is uninimportant in my book.
jblnut
So, where I'm going with this is that I have two *totally* different setups here with nothing really in common except the LOMC part (belt vs. direct, linear vs. uni-pivot, tube vs SS preamp, etc). And yet what strikes me day after day listening to them is how *similar* they sound. Or perhaps better stated, how well they each "get out of the way" and just let me enjoy music.
I would offer that the proposed benefits of "rim drive" (of which VIP is certainly a proponent) would be subtle at best and perhaps close to indistinguishable in a direct comparison (same cart, same phono pre, same LP, same system, same day, A/B comparison).
This is not TOL and so we're not bound to "just accept that there must be a difference because someone hears one". I want to hear about someone who has heard (for example) two VPI's (one with the rim conversion) with everything else being equal in the same system. Can anyone say that they have heard such a comparison ?
My own experiences with radically different tables and phono sections tells me that there is not a whole lot to be gained (if at all) by changing only how the platter is rotated. Keep the speed stable and the rumble out of the way, and you're done. How you do that is uninimportant in my book.
jblnut
DominicL
Active Member
I am not asking anyone to accept this. And I also stated that my findings may be different (i e...turntables sound more similar than different) if using better equipment. A comparison and experiment of low end turntables if you will. What I "am" asking is for someone with similar equipment to try this to either agree or disagree with my findings, and possibly why. No disrespect jbl, but my initial post is not meant towards the higher end equipt. You will have to do that one yourself.
js1138
Super Member
I have to say that after watching these threads for over a year, that I have come to the conclusion that there is something like an uncanny valley involved in high end audio.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley
Perhaps the closer one gets to perfection, the more disturbing the imperfections.
The majority of us accept the best our budgets will allow and never expect audio systems to sound exactly like a live performance. We are satisfied by full range speakers and lack of gross distortion.
People aspiring to cross the valley notice things that I don't notice.
DominicL
Active Member
Not me by any means. My equipment is definitely low end, however, while not perfect, i do have a sense of a live performance. Studio version! Realism is of utmost importance to me. But in a low budget, DIY sort of way. And always looking to improve! :yes:
Similar threads
