Idler wheel "magic"...

[gusten]

I think there's also a danger in interpreting differences as improvements. When sometimes, they're just differences. You could start at either end point, and think an improvement has been made when you arrive at the other option.

Yes, I think this is common. We are easily fooled, if we hear a difference, to believe what we hear is an improvement.
This is e.g. why comparing TTs is very difficult when there is no reference.
gusten

 

[DominicL]

I think there's also a danger in interpreting differences as improvements. When sometimes, they're just differences. You could start at either end point, and think an improvement has been made when you arrive at the other option.

John, I could not agree with you more. What I found did sound better to me. Not just different. Could be my choice of low budget belt and direct drive turntables are lacking something, hence the improvement? Whatever the reason I am staying with it! Sure beats spending thousands to get the same result! Believe me, if I thought 3000 dollar cables would make my system better and not just different, I would have been first in line!

 

[JohnVF]

Yes, I think this is common. We are easily fooled, if we hear a difference, to believe what we hear is an improvement.
This is e.g. why comparing TTs is very difficult when there is no reference.
gusten

But I also don't think there is anything wrong in chasing a difference, either. I'm doing that right now with a second turntable project that's in the works. Table, cart, and phono preamp will all be different, specifically chasing that difference, in a system shared with a very different table/cart/phono preamp.

My only reference is live sound, and that's not attainable, so I fall back on what I like. And that varies. So I'm trying for either end of that spectrum. Neither of these tables will be idler, though. Both belt. Not because I'm against idlers, I'm just content with the options I have and don't feel that I'm missing the magic. Maybe I am, though.

 

[Pio1980]

"Different" is easy, "Better" not so much. That can include discerning the one from the other, I'm still coming to terms with that with my mod'ed H-K T60 and the Meitner platterless spacer. Is it really "better" or beguilingly euphonic? The effortless clean natural detailing and holographic soundstaging of the thing is very musically gratifying nonetheless.

 

[js1138]

Not me by any means. My equipment is definitely low end, however, while not perfect, i do have a sense of a live performance. Studio version! Realism is of utmost importance to me. But in a low budget, DIY sort of way. And always looking to improve! :yes:

This isn't mentioned much, but even my tired old ears with one scarred eardrum can hear the difference between live and recorded.

Perhaps if I were tied to a chair and fifty feet from the stage, no, but in real situations there are clues that make even good equipment sound not live. The most obvious problem with reproduced music is the sweet spot, the fact that sound changes as we move around, and speakers just don't match what happens with live sound.

What I'm suggesting is that people who have the time, money and interest can solve the uncanny problems -- almost. The remaining problems stand out. Some people swear that differences between turntables are as obvious as night and day. I might not hear these differences -- not because my hearing is defective -- but because I'm not listening for them.

So the question is, how important should these differences be. Should everyone aspire to hear them, or should we aspire to accept the best we can do.

 

[JohnVF]

"Different" is easy, "Better" not so much. That can include discerning the one from the other, I'm still coming to terms with that with my mod'ed H-K T60 and the Meitner platterless spacer. Is it really "better" or beguilingly euphonic? The effortless clean natural detailing and holographic soundstaging of the thing is very musically gratifying nonetheless.

Euphonic can be better. There's no law that says you have to chase "The Absolute Sound" as the only solution.

 

[jblnut]

I think there's also a danger in interpreting differences as improvements. When sometimes, they're just differences. You could start at either end point, and think an improvement has been made when you arrive at the other option.

And that right there folks is the crux of about 90% of the threads on every audio site you visit. "I changed something, I hear a difference, ergo it must be better".



That is one reason (the main one actually) that I only make one or two changes per year. I want lots of time to hear lots of music on different days, in different moods and with different people in the room becore I declare victory. Just yesterday in fact I swapped my carts between the turntables where they had been since January. I'll let you all know in December if they'll stay put or move back. Several friends had been telling me "put that DL-S1 on the Classic" and it took a visit to another AK'ers house to tell me that there might be something missing in my own system.

I do support the OP's quest to decide if a rim-drive setup is different enough to be better and I'd love to hear a similar experiment somewhere myself someday.

But would I shell out what VPI wants for a "rim drive conversion" without a direct A/B test with two identical tables, carts and phono sections ?

Umm...no.

jblnut

 

[JohnVF]

And that right there folks is the crux of about 90% of the threads on every audio site you visit. "I changed something, I hear a difference, ergo it must be better".



That is one reason (the main one actually) that I only make one or two changes per year. I want lots of time to hear lots of music on different days, in different moods and with different people in the room becore I declare victory. Just yesterday in fact I swapped my carts between the turntables where they had been since January. I'll let you all know in December if they'll stay put or move back. Several friends had been telling me "put that DL-S1 on the Classic" and it took a visit to another AK'ers house to tell me that there might be something missing in my own system.

I do support the OP's quest to decide if a rim-drive setup is different enough to be better and I'd love to hear a similar experiment somewhere myself someday.

But would I shell out what VPI wants for a "rim drive conversion" without a direct A/B test with two identical tables, carts and phono sections ?

Umm...no.

jblnut

I rotated my cart in the headshell about 1/2mm or less, changed the azimuth by a very small amount, and changed the loading on my cart the other day. The difference was as great to my ears as when I switched out turntables for a short time last week. This was, however, one of the few times where I think I can reliably state that an improvement has been made, as there was actually something audibly wrong with the setup previously.

 

[flavio81]

There is a nice thread at Pink Fish Media about measuring speed stability. So far, as a whole, idlers have been the worst performing of the lot. Good belt drives seem to be measuring as well as anything, and the very good DDs do very well, too.

The only idler tested was an EMT studio turntable and its flutter performance was perfect. The only problem was wow, but to call them "worst performing" is not taking a deep read of the thread. You must read the whole thread to make sense of the graphs. I did.

There was one DD that showed cogging (Pioneer PL-71) although the rotation was smooth; the technics SP-10MK2 (direct drive) was one of the best performing TTs. There was also a belt drive motor that showed horrible flutter, in a pattern that resembled nasty cogging.

 

[flavio81]

While my Lenco isn't modded I can get a good idea of speed stability on it. And it seems stable, and has a nice attack. But so does my VPI with close to 30lbs of platter/mat rotating. Interestingly, I put my heavy aftermarket copper/delrin mat on the Lenco and I had to help it get going...my VPI starts right up.

Your Lenco needs service. They attain full speed in 1 revolution of the platter.

 

[dnewma04]

The only idler tested was an EMT studio turntable and its flutter performance was perfect. The only problem was wow, but to call them "worst performing" is not taking a deep read of the thread. You must read the whole thread to make sense of the graphs. I did.

There was one DD that showed cogging (Pioneer PL-71) although the rotation was smooth; the technics SP-10MK2 (direct drive) was one of the best performing TTs. There was also a belt drive motor that showed horrible flutter, in a pattern that resembled nasty cogging.

Sorry, I must have found idlers in another thread that was a spinoff of that one. I saw some ROK measurements, a Gates something or another, and a 301 graphs at some point in the last month or so. I'll try to track them down and link.

IIRC, the most recent SP-10 measurement that looked really good might have been the original, not the MkII, but it could have just been mislabeled.

 

[marc mc]

This a a slice from Arthur Salvatore's reference components section on his web site. Arthur is the guy that got me into audio. I heard gear in his store that most dream about. He was and is a Digital holdout and is considered by many to be one of the most knowledgable analog guys around. His idler findings sent a shockwave across Ontario among us who know him and his convictions.


Effective Torque- The Idler-Drive's Unique and Ultimate Advantage
A well-designed and executed idler-drive has more effective torque (ET)* than any other type of drive system. It's that simple. The amount of ET is critically important, because it is required to overcome the inherent "groove resistance"** of the LP. The less the "groove resistance" effects the platter speed, the fewer sonic problems (stylus drag**) the system will experience (and you will hear). In short- Every single change in the record groove requires some amount of ET to overcome it (without any alteration in speed). This is true even if it's a tiny change (like the high harp note discussed above), but especially if it's a large change (deep, powerful bass notes or complex crescendos).

Effective torque, in effect, is required to properly "initiate" a musical note (or passage). Since a continual stream of new notes must appear while the LP is being played, adequate ET is a necessity at all times. Without the proper amount of ET, the sound will vary, depending on the amount, and type, of notes (resistive changes) coming into play (as various physical changes in the groove). It's this variance, or musical inconsistency (distortion), which good idler-drives diminish better than any other design.

Marc mc

 

[Pio1980]

Euphonic can be better. There's no law that says you have to chase "The Absolute Sound" as the only solution.

You should try the Meitner platterless spacer on your Mitz as it is easy to correct the VTA and you're no using it much these days.

 

[Pio1980]

This a a slice from Arthur Salvatore's reference components section on his web site. Arthur is the guy that got me into audio. I heard gear in his store that most dream about. He was and is a Digital holdout and is considered by many to be one of the most knowledgable analog guys around. His idler findings sent a shockwave across Ontario among us who know him and his convictions.


Effective Torque- The Idler-Drive's Unique and Ultimate Advantage
A well-designed and executed idler-drive has more effective torque (ET)* than any other type of drive system. It's that simple. The amount of ET is critically important, because it is required to overcome the inherent "groove resistance"** of the LP. The less the "groove resistance" effects the platter speed, the fewer sonic problems (stylus drag**) the system will experience (and you will hear). In short- Every single change in the record groove requires some amount of ET to overcome it (without any alteration in speed). This is true even if it's a tiny change (like the high harp note discussed above), but especially if it's a large change (deep, powerful bass notes or complex crescendos).

Effective torque, in effect, is required to properly "initiate" a musical note (or passage). Since a continual stream of new notes must appear while the LP is being played, adequate ET is a necessity at all times. Without the proper amount of ET, the sound will vary, depending on the amount, and type, of notes (resistive changes) coming into play (as various physical changes in the groove). It's this variance, or musical inconsistency (distortion), which good idler-drives diminish better than any other design.

Marc mc

Pretty much my thoughts as previously posted tho' I don't use an idler TT. I have to say that my present top-dog TT doesn't suck on note definition or soundstage tho' there may be just a bit of pitch sag as it is a resilient BD.

 

[dnewma04]

I think Mr. Salvatore needs to learn a bit about drive systems and motors.

 

[Daniel Walte]

The turntable testing they are doing is it in relationship to measurements of the tables and comparing them to human perceiving in human hearing?:scratch2:

 

[Daniel Walte]

If Arthur Salvatore's can back or has backed up what he is saying with truthful testing then we can assume what he is saying could be true but does he have proof is all I want to know.

 

[dnewma04]

I'll see if I can come up with a good way to explain without confusing the issue anymore. The stylus drag that Salvatore references is something that would be a real phenomena. During dynamic passages of music, there would be more drag than something that wasn't dynamic. We are talking *very* miniscule changes in speed but some claim to be sensitive to miniscule speed variations. So how do you combat it? With a heavy platter like many turntables use, you are reducing the magnitude of the speed variation, but making the variation last longer. With a lighter platter, you have more magnitude of variation but with shorter periods. Designers who prefer both exist, which is subjectively better will likely depend on the listener. The other approach is to add more torque to the drive system (regardless of type) but then you have to deal with a compromise. Increased torque = increased cogging effect so there is a balance that has to be considered. Another balance is with the amount of compliance present between the drive system and the platter. A rubber belt will have more compliance than most idlers, but some idlers will have more compliance than a tape belt or one of the string drives systems. No matter what, you are forced to pick your poison.

I mentioned using an eddy brake earlier to stabilize speed. It's an excellent way of effectively dominating the effects of stylus drag by making the overall drag orders of magnitude higher than stylus drag, with a huge majority of that drag coming from a very consistent source rather than a variable one.

 

[js1138]

If stylus drag is a real phenonenon, it should be incredibly easy to measure.

 

[dnewma04]

It more than likely would be, it's also incredibly easy to consider it in your head. Changes in stylus drag would result in some speed variation. Possibly very miniscule, but very real.

There may be some debate about what magnitude of variation becomes audible, but the existence of the variation is not something that would be up for debate.