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The truth about subwoofers

He didn't speak about different arrival times. This is where full range speakers have it over separate subs spread around the room versus full range speakers. Sub proponents only talk about frequency response and a mount of level produced and distortion. If the bass from a sub arrives before or after it should the ear easily picks up on that difference and you will always feel uncomfortable with subs not integrating with your system. Especially from cheaper subs with Huge harmonica distortion out put or noisy ports. And remember subs have to move 4 to 8 times as much air as the total sum capability of your satellite speakers at the crossover point. So if you have 6, 8. or more woofers in your system. Calculated the volume displacement maximum and the crossover point. Then multiply by 8 and then determine the sub cone displacement the sub can handle and then calculate the area of the cone you need. You might be distressed to find out you need two long throw 15's or 18's. But if you like live recorded specials. Like Big daddy racing Shirley, down the drag strip you better that the full 125+ capability. How about UP Big Boy 4014 going down the Track under full throttle at a 10 ft distance. I did it 4 times this year. Feeling the ground shaking and shuttering under your feet and in your bones. Try that with a punny pair of 12 inch subs. Where was my Nagra R2R and B&K mics when I needed them? OH! I am retired. But I do have the recordings I made of Shirley and Big Daddy. She won 2 out of three, in 1981. I always wanted to have one mic at the starting line and three more spaced equally to the top end. That would make one great 4 channel recording for a quad or HT system.
 
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The "punch" in bass, depending on the mix is around 80hz to 100hz. Anything below that is just mud on most recordings unless you are listening to electronic music with pure sine-wave bass. .

Hold on a second....there is a considerable amount of significant sonic information from melodic and percussive acoustic instruments that produce sound below 80 Hz. The resonant, sustaining notes of a bass drum, floor tom, gong drum, tympani, etc...that’s all happening clear on down into the 20’s and hearing a system that can reproduce it accurately with balance and authority is the stuff that makes one go “wow”. It brings a greater helping of realism to the table...which is very much lost on systems that won’t play deep into the first octave.
 
Gee! I have four. My friends and neighbors think that's excessive.:D

You have been vindicated . I was running 4 for some time . I found a Velodyne 8 inch SPL for cheap and stuck it in the corner and things got better . Number 6 was for my HT LFE channel . I broke out a signal splitter and now I have a half dozen . I ran a new room correction curve and wow .
 
...there is a considerable amount of significant sonic information from melodic and percussive acoustic instruments that produce sound below 80 Hz.

I agree, there is a significant amount of information in that range. Therein lies the problem. It isn't just one instrument thundering away, hence many low frequencies are competing for the same space. I really think it comes down to the type of music and the mix, which is why I like the adjustable crossover to balance things out to my ears. I haven't noticed timing issues, then again I don't know what to listen for in that regard. My subs are decoupled from the full range but aligned in the same plane. Maybe timing inconsistencies pop up when you move the sub to different part of the room.
 
I’m guilty of the former. My experience with sealed subs has been considerably better than with ported...but then again, I’ve only tried a few different ported subs.

All the ported subs I've heard I didn't like except for one. So I can conclude that the ported subs I've heard weren't done properly. The only ported sub I actually liked was an 8" slot ported that was part of a Klipsch iPod speaker system I had maybe 10 years ago.

Also drivel that preamp out is always better.

Agreed.

While I prefer preamp out with a two way active 24 dB/octave active crossover, I've had good results at work using the high level inputs of a sub fed from the speaker output of an amplifier and adding a capacitor in each speaker to form a proper high pass at the desired crossover frequency of the sub.

I've tried both in a 2 channel system and hands down line level is superior in every instance. My high end sub doesn't even offer high level inputs. It's an inferior connection and at it's price point it was assumed only separates would be used and high level connections that most receivers etc would require weren't needed.

I have both ported and sealed servo controlled, and agree on the servo being superior with "music".

One thing not mentioned is phase shift which determines how well a particular subwoofer connection sounds. An amplifier or preamp may be flat to 20 or below 20Hz, but still have phase shift of the lower frequencies.

I discovered all about phase shift when I was working on a mono system consisting of a radio driving a full range plate amp driving a speaker with four woofers one midrange and one tweeter.

When I replaced certain coupling caps in the plate amp with higher values (initially done to provide flat bass response to 20Hz) I noticed the bass sounded better so I proceeded to replace all the coupling caps in the amp with large enough values such that there is virtually no phase shift at 20Hz as shown on an oscilloscope and the bass sounded even better.

A subwoofer that has the high level inputs connected to the speaker outputs of an amplifier may not sound good if the amplifier has any phase shift at all in the bass.

That may explain why line level sounded better for you as the amp you may have used to drive the high level inputs and main speakers may have had some phase shift, whereas the line level output may have had no or much less phase shift.

Checking for phase shift requires a dual channel oscilloscope and an audio generator capable of going down to 20Hz.

Any and all tone controls are set to flat or bypassed with all processing turned off as that can affect the results.

One channel connects to the audio generator which also goes to the input of the device under test.

The other channel connects to the output.

The generator is set for a higher frequency (I prefer 400Hz for full range amps) and the output of the generator set to a decent level with the device under test set to a decent output level and the volts/div controls on the scope are set so that both waveforms are equal in amplitude.

One waveform is placed directly on top of the other and the frequency is lowered down to the lowest frequency the amp is expected to reproduce. If there is any phase shift at all one waveform will start to lead the other.

Then if there is phase shift, check the signal at each coupling capacitor in the device until you find the one causing the phase shift. Odds are it is multiple coupling caps and if so at each stage working from the output to the input the phase shift should be smaller.

You then select a coupling cap value that completely eliminates all phase shift. An easy value to start with is double the existing capacitor value.

For amplifiers which capacitor couple the amp to the speaker jacks, it isn't practical to try to totally eliminate the phase shift as the capacitor would need to be high enough to where the resultant charge current may ruin the speakers, output transistors, blow the protection fuses or at minimum cause a very loud pop. In that instance the scope connects before the speaker coupling cap and the test is done as specified to eliminate all phase shift before the speaker coupling cap. Now the speaker coupling cap can be increased in value if so desired up to perhaps 4700uF without any problems, but I haven't tried anything larger than that.
 
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Reviving an old thread. There were lots of opinions here regarding low level vs speaker level inputs but not a whole lot of consensus. I'm looking for consensus because I am considering the purchase of a sub that only has low level inputs. Has thinking evolved in the 11 months since the last post? I know the answer to that, just looking to re-invigorate the discussion.
 
Reviving an old thread. There were lots of opinions here regarding low level vs speaker level inputs but not a whole lot of consensus. I'm looking for consensus because I am considering the purchase of a sub that only has low level inputs. Has thinking evolved in the 11 months since the last post? I know the answer to that, just looking to re-invigorate the discussion.


must be a higher end sub, they often don't include high level inputs.
 
Now that's a good song! Thank you for posting that. Some people (@GChief, post #18) seem to question my credibility but I don't see how anyone could question The Hoff's irrefutable musical and cinematic talent after seeing that video :).

This is the sub in question. I suspect it is not lacking high level inputs because it's a higher end sub, more like that it's aimed primarily at AVRs with dedicated sub outs. Any opinions on that sub are welcome btw.
 
This is the sub in question. I suspect it is not lacking high level inputs because it's a higher end sub, more like that it's aimed primarily at AVRs with dedicated sub outs. Any opinions on that sub are welcome btw.

:no:
There is a reason it is at Costco at a low price.
 
i want to add my .2 cents here - if we're talking about a home-theatre application, the sub-out channel(s) is a discrete channel on your dvd, blueray or digital movie stream, and if you don't use the subwoofer out jack on the reciever, you're likely not getting that information.

can ignore the rest of this if you're just listening to stereo

if your can tell your reciever in its setup that you're not using a sub, it might play that information through the main speakers, or it may not - now that i'm curious i will run a test.....hang on guys i'll be right back

whew! that was a lot of work - well, it seems that even if i tell my reciever that i don't have a subwoofer, the .1 subwoofer track does not play through the mains, it's just missing info. tests performed on a Yamaha A-3050 receiver using the THX optimizer on my DVD copy of Akira, which i am now watching
 
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