Upgrade Company mods for Mcintosh amps

[hwirt]

Call me skeptical but before having any modifications done to my McIntosh equipment I would like to see complete before and after testing performed on a like model.

The fact that some members have reported that the sound was improved may be caused by a slight shift in frequency response caused by the modifications. A slight adjustment to a tone control may have the same effect. This difference would produce a sound less accurate than the original design. The obvious design goals of McIntosh engineering is to produce the lowest distortion, lowest noise and most linear amplifiers, preamps, compact disk players possible. My equipment will stay original until there is positive proof of a real improvement.

Heath

 

[hassel]

Six moons has a show report on the Rocky Mountains Audio Fest, where The Upgrade Company exhibited:

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/denver07m+h/denver_8.html

Regards,
Florian Hassel

 

[Kevin M.]

In my MC501s the large power supply filter caps are labeled McIntosh made in USA. As far as I can tell all the smaller caps are either Wima or Rubycon. In my MDA1000 there were also Muse caps. From my premod inspection of my McIntosh equipment it looks like quality parts were used throughout, not the best parts but definitely quality parts.

Victor

Those are great parts IMO. Reassuring. For a guy like me that's new, year or so, to Mcintosh, it's nice to see that the gear is not all show and no go as far as parts. Well built and beautiful too.

 

[Victor]

Victor,

What would be 'better' parts than the custom made for McIntosh parts you outlined?

Thanks,
Ron-C

I don't make any claims to be an expert on audio parts but some things that come to mind would be:

Vishay resistors, they have 0.005% tolerence resistors listed on their web site.
Black Gate capacitors, which of course are made by Robycon.
Burson discrete opamps.

This gets subjective because some "audiophile" grade parts will improve some electronics and make others worse. And different people will hear these changes differently.

My point was that I was very impressed with the high quality parts that McIntosh uses in their products.

Victor

 

[basite]

My point was that I was very impressed with the high quality parts that McIntosh uses in their products.

Victor

yeah, I can't see what's the actual problem. Mcintosh already uses High quality parts, so I don't think that there is any need to 'upgrade'. As Ron already said, you can change the sound by replacing some components, but that doesn't nessecarily mean it will become better.

I think the German distributor just made the sound more German-ish, which IMHO, with an American product, is not a good thing to do...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

 

[hassel]

I am looking forward to hear from Victor when he got back his upgraded equipment, although for me his description of the comparison between an upgraded 252 and his unmodified 501s, ending in clear favour of the 252, already was more than convincing.

The German distributor changing the units to sound more German-ish is just plain nonsense, as there is no such thing as German sound. The technician there told me they use better parts, e.g. capacitors, and if you start to talk around, there is quite a few names that come to mind, apart from those Victor already mentioned - Hovland MusiCaps, Mundorf, and so on. Likewise, there seems to be improvement with McIntosh CD-players, isolation of the transport system within the player being only one example.

After all these years of owning and upgrading within McIntosh, I consider myself a die-hard McIntosh-fan myself. Still, I find it amusing how many people on this forum cannot even accept the possibility that McIntosh-amps or other units can be improved upon.
Regards,
Florian Hassel

 

[howiebrou]

as there is no such thing as German sound.

Have to agree here. Just go listen to MBL, T+A, Burmester, Lindemann, Acustic Arts and I'm sure you will agree :yes:

 

[Victor]

I have my equipment home from the Upgrade Company. The weather forecast calls for snow this weekend so I drove to Michigan on Wednesday after work instead of driving through the snow on Sunday.

I have only had a little time to listen so far and it is difficult to make comparisons with several days between listening. My first impression is that the soundstage has increased depth. So far I like what I hear.

I'm planning on taking the MC501s to the local stereo shop tomorrow to compare them to the stock MC501s that are there (weather permitting).

I'll keep you all informed of my findings.

Victor

 

[CarlV]

I would suggest for you to post your findings in the Reviews forum and maybe post a link to it from here as it has it's own rules. I believe this would be to your benefit.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2065

Carl

 

[Victor]

Can do Carl.

To all, check for a new thread in the reviews forum on Sunday.

Victor

 

[toddmorris]

... amusing how many people on this forum cannot even accept the possibility that McIntosh-amps or other units can be improved upon.

Indeed it is amusing.
As an aside, purely from a marketing standpoint you have to admire a company that has created a cult-like following among many of its customers....

Was pondering this subject the other day....if Mac can't be improved via mods, then why would most of us acknowledge that the sound improves as you move up models in an architectually-similar family? Answer.....because we assume Mac is using better quality parts as they move up the line.
Or are you guys going to assert that the improved sound is due solely to the increased power availability?

 

[exracer]

Indeed it is amusing.
As an aside, purely from a marketing standpoint you have to admire a company that has created a cult-like following among many of its customers....

Was pondering this subject the other day....if Mac can't be improved via mods, then why would most of us acknowledge that the sound improves as you move up models in an architectually-similar family? Answer.....because we assume Mac is using better quality parts as they move up the line.
Or are you guys going to assert that the improved sound is due solely to the increased power availability?

Well one can use the best parts in a poor design and it will still sound poor...and as many parts that I may change in my 7300 will never make it fully-balanced....

 

[david10024]

Victor, don't you need a long break-in time for the Blackgates? How many hours until you can get a fair comparison of the original and modded 501's? I suspect the first noticeable difference would be due to the re-soldering.

 

[Victor]

Victor, don't you need a long break-in time for the Blackgates? How many hours until you can get a fair comparison of the original and modded 501's?

That is a good point. That along with the fact that there is already about three inches on snow on the ground is going to postpone the 501 comparisons. Straight home from work today and staying there for some music.

I did not count, but between the MDA1000 and MC501s it looks like David put in about two dozen Blackgate caps. I have had the equipment playing for about 48 hours so far. I have also played the Purist Audio break in CD a few times.

Victor

 

[Negotiableterms]

Answer.....because we assume Mac is using better quality parts as they move up the line.

Interesting. I've always assumed the parts were of identical quality until you hit the 1000 series.

Or are you guys going to assert that the improved sound is due solely to the increased power availability?

The lower amps are not quad-balanced, and the circuits in the lineup are all slightly different. I assumed you got more elaborate circuits, with more power, as you went up the line.

My experience in newer Mc gear is limited to 7200, 352, 402, 501, 1201 abd the above seems true to me. Since I'm so limited, does anyone ahve a better persepective and a different conclusion?

 

[Kevin M.]

I have my equipment home from the Upgrade Company.
I have only had a little time to listen so far and it is difficult to make comparisons with several days between listening. My first impression is that the soundstage has increased depth. So far I like what I hear.
I'll keep you all informed of my findings.
Victor

Awesome!

 

[Kevin M.]

Interesting. I've always assumed the parts were of identical quality until you hit the 1000 series.

The lower amps are not quad-balanced, and the circuits in the lineup are all slightly different. I assumed you got more elaborate circuits, with more power, as you went up the line.

My experience in newer Mc gear is limited to 7200, 352, 402, 501, 1201 abd the above seems true to me. Since I'm so limited, does anyone ahve a better persepective and a different conclusion?

I don't know about Mcintosh but many companies do improve the parts selections as you go up in models. Many times it's not just more power.The caps in the Mcintosh amps could be made by the same company but one amp could have a better grade of cap for example. Some companies don't like to advertise this. You really have to either open them up or ask specific questions which is hard to do if you don't know what to ask in the first place. For example, with my surrond processor the manufacter advertises that the dacs are Burr Brown 1704 dacs in both the Superior II and the Xtreme cards. Took me a year to finally find out that sure they both the same dac but one is the 1704k dac and the other is not. The 1704k dac offers superior perfermance to the other 1704u dac. .

 

[ron-c]

Victor,

The parts you listed would not help or could not be used in McIntosh products. Blackgate caps are good performers but are not suited to production work since they vary in value from one to the next, poor supply, they have a very limited choice of values, not ROHS and lastly no longer made as far as I know.
The trend in caps is moving toward low ESR designs with very stable and long life.
Resistors used by McIntosh are .5% or 1% types only. If you measure these they are for all practical purposed identical. Vishay is another supplier of good caps but nothing different that would effect the sound.
Op amps. It is obvious that many designers have problems with the proper design and layout of circuits and boards using Op Amps. Look at the silly performance of many CD/SACD output sections. These parts are only as good as the design and when the design is good the circuit should be transparent.

Thanks,
Ron-C

 

[Victor]

Victor,

The parts you listed would not help or could not be used in McIntosh products. Blackgate caps are good performers but are not suited to production work since they vary in value from one to the next, poor supply, they have a very limited choice of values, not ROHS and lastly no longer made as far as I know.

Yes, this is my point exactly. McIntosh does a fantastic job in their manufacturing process. But there are things that can be done to improve the sound that are not realistic for production line work. These things would include things like measuring and matching capacitors used and individually voice these items in the circuit to see which sound better. David said he spent over 10 hours on my MDA1000 with measuring and listening tests then when I got there to pick up the equipment we spent another 2 hours voicing the MDA1000 and we determined it sounded better without the Bybee filters. It would not be realistic to do these things during production but a small one man company could fill a market nitch doing these things.

Op amps. It is obvious that many designers have problems with the proper design and layout of circuits and boards using Op Amps. Look at the silly performance of many CD/SACD output sections. These parts are only as good as the design and when the design is good the circuit should be transparent.

Thanks,
Ron-C

This is another area where McIntosh excels. The opamps used in my MDA1000 are Burr Brown OPA2134PA. Nice quality parts, no need to upgrade these.

Victor

 

[Victor]

I have been listening to my upgraded McIntosh MDA1000, MS750 and MC501s for about 10 days now. For those who are interested and have not seen it yet, I have a thread on my upgraded McIntosh equipment in the Equipment Reviews & Opinions forum.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=139320

Victor