ADS 1230 or ESS 1a

[Squirrely]

The woofers are back in and I am playing the AMT 1a’s again. The base is restored and they sound fantastic. This thread was started to gather information comparing the ESS AMT 1a to the ADS 1230. I can easily say that both speakers are among the best I have ever heard. I am so grateful to have both. I could not pick one over the other but I can say that Led Zeppelin II (Whole Lotta Love) has never sounded as good to me as it does through the ESS AMT 1a. These speakers are my pick for hard rock for sure. The ADS 1230’s are very versatile and will not disappoint for rock but they don’t come close when to the ESS AMT 1a for throwing the music in your face with a viscous punch. These speakers seem made for Led Zep. Hammer of the Gods! The ADS speakers are smooth perfectly suited for softer music. I would choose the ADS 1230 every time for softer music like Nora Jones or the crooners of old like Bing Crosby and the like. I think they may also be better for blues. The ADS will live in the living room where they can be enjoyed by my wife and myself listening to Joni Mitchel, and other soft rock. When I want to rock my brains out of my gored I can come to my listening space, crank up the ESS speakers and loose myself.

The Dynaco ST-70 is out of the mix for now. Instead I am using an Eico hf-87 amp with the Audio Research SP-8 pre. This set up is it for me. The quest is over. I assume the addiction is still active though.

 

[automojo]

Awesome-good to hear everything worked out!
Great thread-thanks!

 

[Stan man]

Good to hear you got your 1as running.
You know, I would not describe my Ds as in your face.
I really can't say enough about the 1 series. They're design is simple genius, mostly because of the Great Heil. They're a mini monitor with a built in sub, an open baffle, they're a horn, they're an extremely dynamic dipole with the speed of an electrostatic.
Given room to breath, with good jazz and or good live recordings, the sound stage is enormous and as real as any other quality speaker twice their size.
Driven correctly or not, these are incredible speakers.
It's a shame the Heils are always shunned by the big magazines as a real (game changer) in speaker design. They simply put most conventional designs to shame.

 

[IBJamon]

I just finally got around to installed the foam "wings" in my AMT3s, and I gotta say they sure sound great. Now I wasn't able to do an A/B comparison, so it is not totally scientific, but I am pleased with their sound regardless. At this point I have to say it probably doesn't do much if any harm to do this.

Thanks, and congrats on enjoying your 1As! I may have to try the foam thing with my 1Cs sometime (though it is much harder to do this, like it is with your 1As, for the same reason.)

IBJamon

 

[Squirrely]

Thanks for everyone’s support. These speakers are growing on me every time I sit and listen. These are just plain fun to listen to. I get stuck in my recliner for hours at a time. The only down side is that I find it impossible to have background music while I get other things done. I can have my computer in front of me while I listen to music, but I can’t leave my chair. It’s just too good. Maybe walking around and listening to these speakers are a learned skill. Like walking and chewing gum. I’m a slow learner.
I will be trying the foam wings soon. I have been thinking about how to do this. I want to cause as little disruption to the sound stage as possible. What I am thinking is making a cardboard frame that slips over the Heil. The best way to describe what I have in mind is to think of headphones. There is the strap that goes over the head and holds the cups to the ears. If I have a flat piece of cardboard that fits over the top and folds down on both sides I can then glue or tape a cardboard panel to it that would project away from the Heil. You could think of this as the cups of the headphone only these would be flat panels the same height as the Heil and coming away from the Heil. I would glue foam to the front and back of the panel.
By doing this, my sound dampening can be moved forward or rearward on the Heil. I am hoping to have the wings limited to about 1” of thickness. This would disrupt the wrap around effect and still allow as much lateral projection as possible.
It may be a while before I get around to it, but I will post pictures as I go. I will also make regular foam blocks so I can compare the two approaches.

 

[IBJamon]

Should be interesting. I took some ~1" packing foam and stuck it between the frame of my AMT3 and the Heils on each side. Pressure fit was enough. Since you don't have a frame, you could probably just use masking tape if you plan on keeping the hoods on all the time... if not, making it look good will be a challenge for sure.

Best of luck, and please report back on your successes/failures!

IBJamon

 

[automojo]

Good ideas on the wings.
I agree the ESS AMT1's and 3's didn't get some of the respect of some of the audio mags back in the day (not unlike Klipsch).
Although they had decent specs-they are meant to play music, not satisfy a graph, chart etc. High definition of horns with little of the harshness, and much better dispersion.
They also are fairly transparent, and can make weak links in the chain obvious.
Case in point for me is my Teac PD-H600 cd player. While I noticed it require some warm up to sound it's best, this is very apparent when running the AMT3's, to the point I make sure it's been on for 2 hours prior to using it, or sometimes just leave it on on the weekend etc.
Others get hung up on the drawbacks of the 2way design, even though they still play music better then most high end speakers-IMHO.
HF did have a good write up on the AMT3's.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=4594064&postcount=1
Stereophile had a good review of the GoldenEar Triton II, which in some respects is a modern day AMT3 IMHO.
ESS IMHO had the right idea on the AMT1a's on the 3's etc, they were made to play music, not prefect, but what speaker is?
I have heard enough ruler flat speakers, while nice and I can appreciate their design efforts, have no musical soul, so to speak.
I'll pass on those.....

 

[automojo]

AMT3 Midtube Brace/Cascade VB-1X

Here a few pics of the mid brace and VB-1X damping material applied-AMT3.
I need to touch up a few small spots as seen.
Applies easily with a brush, and water cleanup.
Dries rock hard, and should also provide a good surface to attach the Auralex foam.
If I would have know how well this worked years ago, I would have used this instead to silicone/glue etc to seal up the box, and some added damping as well-most notably the mid and woofer braces and midtube.
Good stuff, takes a while to dry-I would say to wait a week minimum before installing drivers/crossovers etc. On dry surfaces-wood etc it really soaks in-so you need a few coats. You could also roil or spray it on.
Most of the runs and bumps/drips you see are from the epoxy, for sealing/and or repair that dripped around.
Note: the screws in the 1st and 3rd pic are keeping any epoxy out of the Hurricane nuts-a little die-electric on the threads.

 

[essNeff]

Auto,

You might try a couple of "Spit Coats" (thinned shellac) before the VB-1X. It will prevent the cabinet from "inhaling" the VB.
Save you some time and $$$. Do a test spot first for compatibility.
Good job and info!

 

[automojo]

Sure.
I thought about it as well.
But reading the info, having the wood soak up the compound is part of it's design, to add up structural stability along with the damping.
Or maybe a way to sell more product!
The problem for me would be it's cold, and inside fumes are no good.

 

[essNeff]

It probably helps to bond the product to the cabinet so it won't flake off.

 

[Porkloin]

What a great education.

Thank you for the photos. Close up inspection of 1970's mass manufacturing is a good primer on what NOT to do when building your own speakers. Whereas a simple hardwood plywood backup ring would not be susceptible to the same problems with barbed nuts as MDF, it would increase costs to an undesirable level on a production scale.
A gasket between the backup ring and the enclosure would also add a bit of driver isolation when coupled with the normal gasket under the driver.
Cutting the plywood rings would take it's toll on the router bits, but on a home project scale, it would be worth it.

 

[automojo]

I know some member have used plywood "rings" instead of epoxy and Hurricane nuts.
If ESS had avoided using the black silicone to seal the woofers, most of the problems could have been avoided.
Also using threaded inserts from the beginning would have helped-but the black silicone is the main culprit as it pulls away the already thinner mounting surface, in chunks at times.
MDF will not ring like plywood.
The stock woofers are fairly light, and bracing was not really needed, but may have reduced audible baffle vibration in any configuration, as they definitely sound more solid by the knock test.
Sometimes, however bracing just moves the vibrations to other panels, luckily with the AMT3 the sides are 1 1/2 thick.
With the Dayton SY255-8's, hanging 26lbs (vs 10lbs max stock) on 40 year old baffles already compromised in part because of the silicone is probably asking for trouble.
I agree-ESS saved money by using silicone and not using threaded inserts.

 

[Porkloin]

Manufacturing

It's kind of odd how they'd go through the difficulty of recessing drivers, but not the comparatively simple act of using inserts. They threw 40 pounds of wood into the monitor series, but couldn't stamp out a couple of foam gaskets. If the production runs were relatively small, they could've done it by hand - I had my artistic girlfriend do a bang-up job of cutting some foam gaskets by hand with scissors and a hole punch in about five minutes. I'm sure with a little practice, Rico's sweet Grandma could knock them out in two.
I'll bet ESS' methods have improved with the times. I think most speakers of this vintage suffered the same problems. Look at the beloved Dahlquist DQ-10's - those things would've gotten an "F" in junior high wood shop.

 

[automojo]

Silicone was cheap, and probably relatively new in the day, and probably wasn't much of problem up front. Cutting labor cost was probably a big plus, and it would make assembly much faster.
As far as I know, ESS farmed out the cabinets.
Rick wasn't actually involved with ESS back then, Nelson Pass and a few other notables were, as the basic design of the AMT1's and 3's do IMHO show some good effort.
Not that they can't be improved, but most things can 40 years later with some hind sight.

 

[Squirrely]

I see you guys are taking good care of my thread.

I’m just dropping in to say WOW! I love these speakers. The ESS AMT 1a is now my favorite. The ADS 1230 is smooth and well balanced but I could not give up the detail and sound stage of the 1a’s. The ADS will be in the living room because my wife loves them. I understand that completely. They are truly fine speakers. But I have my new favorite. I will scout for AMT 3’s to see how they go. Haven’t tried the foam wings yet. I am still stuck to my listening chair. I always knew Martial Matt Dillan of Gun Smoke was talking on The Wall by Pink Floyd, but now I can clearly hear every word as if the TV is on in the room. This is amazing! I will drop back in when I have constructed foam wings. It may be a while. I have JBL L19’s on the bench now. If you leave the thread before I come back, be sure to turn off the lights when you are done. Don’t bother locking the door. Thanks!

 

[Stan man]

I'm lovin my 1bs!
I think ESS got them right here.This is my second set. I foolishly sold my used ones back about in 89. Picked up these minty pair about a year and a half ago. The guy had expertly refoamed and replaced the passive. All I did to them was tune the passives, the ones you get now are not tuned, by-passed the stock electrolytics with film and foil and rewired them. There really isn't much difference in sound between these and my heavily modded Ds. Except, these look much nicer and are really well built. I'm not sure how my 1590s would do against these, but I'd bet my money on the ESSs.

 

[Squirrely]

Those are nice and clean looking. They sure look small in front of the Klipsch. ESS AMT’s prove that speakers don’t have to be big to produce presence. I am still reeling from these. I have never responded to a speaker this way. I think I have found the one that fits my musical taste and the synergy of my other gear.

 

[automojo]

Those are nice and clean looking. They sure look small in front of the Klipsch. ESS AMT’s prove that speakers don’t have to be big to produce presence. I am still reeling from these. I have never responded to a speaker this way. I think I have found the one that fits my musical taste and the synergy of my other gear.

I agree, exactly my thoughts as well.
Never should have sold by ESS PS1220's to buy a set of Klipsch KG 5'5's, and when I had a chance years later to score my first set of AMT3's-the Klipsch soon followed as trade for another set of AMT3's. I always missed the Heil sound and clarity. Amazing sound.
They aren't just a tweeter but a mid/lower mid as well. Why a never get people using them for only a super tweeter! Really? A serious mistake IMHO.
Especially from the point source driver crowd. IMHO they have little clue (for what ever reason) on how well the driver works as a mid/lower mid-that's it real beauty.
IMHO some analyze speakers, this negative, that negative, (afraid they might make some sort of mistake, among other things) way too much and just forget to sit down and take a good listen.
Like in another thread one member mentioned trying Great Heils for 2 weeks and could not stand them-personally I don't buy it-or he had some thing seriously amiss with his system.
I know I'm a Heil addict/freak, but most of the dismissive response hold little weight from what I've read in the past-because they don't make any sense from my experience.
They are made to play music, and they do it very well, the specs/graphs are for those that spend more time analyzing and criticizing then listening to music. No thanks!:thmbsp:
The latest Stereophile is also rediscovering the Heil-Golden Ear and Dayton.
Nice 1b's!
If I find a nice set local, I'll probably go for it.
There is a set of 1's for sale, but I want the passive setup. Plus $800 is a bit step IMHO for the ported 1's.

 

[automojo]

Cascade VB-1X

After treated 2 cabinets so far, there is a noticeable difference in the "knock" test-so I'm pretty pleased.
Particularly the left area around the stock port-even with the midtube brace it still sounded a bit hollow-till the VB1x treatment. Same sound as the right side next to the brace-awesome!!!
Un-scientific, but it should be a improvement.
After reading here, and a few other threads-those AMT1b cab where really built well.
The AMT3's had the right thing going, but could have really used a stouter driver/baffle board, or used the bracing. Sides are more the adequate as long as the cab in cab design is tight in this areas. A constrained layer here would have been perfect.
Besides that the design of the 3's is pretty good IMHO.
Stock woofers vs Daytons IMHO is really a matter of choice, but after looking at the bare treated and braced cabs-I think even the stock setup could benefit from the bracing and VB1-X treatment.
I think it would clean up the bass considerably and I bet get rid of the overly warm sound of the stock setup.
I'm starting to think a lot of this has to do with mainly the front baffle vibrations, and second the rear panel vibrations.
I'm also wondering about the stock midtube vibrations adding some of this warmth.
Treated with a thick coat (multiple)of VB-1X, they are essentially dead now-a huge difference here.
In a nutshell more of you power is applied to the cones, and not wasted on the baffles/tubes.
And this has been the knock for some-the woofers were not up to speed with the other drivers.
I'm betting the combination of bracing and treatment should alleviant this issue to a large extent.
I was a bit skeptical on the VB1-X at first, in my application, but I'm thoroughly impressed with it now, and it's probably going to end up being worth the price of admission here.......