ADS 1230 or ESS 1a

[essNeff]

Personally I would keep the stock stuffing as is.
I disagree about removing it.
El-Seven is contradicting himself a bit-yes made by audio engineers-if so there must be a reason for the damping materiel.
2 reasons,(1) perhaps to fine tune the interior volume, but (2) more like to reduce midbass/lower midrange reflection from bouncing around in the interior and cause problems. You just fluff it up and distribute it evenly. It won't affect how the woofer operates-it's pretty light, unless you really pack it in next to the cone.
It can effect the passive some-but the movement of the passive eventually pushes it back-you just want some free space between the woofer and passive.
You could line the interior with foam-but IMHO just leave the stuffing-same amounts etc-as it works just fine with stock components.

I wanted to see the bracing, because I have seen 2 different types, yours and front to back. The latter may have been DIY.
Audio engineers don't always get it right. A number of reasons why this is the case.
I think most of us that have been around a manufacturing business can easily point to a few.
One here I can easily point to is the deletion of a foam ring of similar apparatus to prevent the lower frequencies from wrapping around the Great Heil housing and canceling- true when the Heil is crossed over low, like the AMT1a's.
This cancellation effect has been fairly well documented for a number of years, and adding foam wings to the sides does make a audible and measurable difference. Somewhere I have 2 articles saved on this, including measurements.
Nothing wrong with tweeking, that's the spirit of DIY and Audio Karma.
IMHO it's more of a embracing and a real appreciation of the product, then just letting things be, as is.
Hell, were would we be if we were all satisfied with the status quo.......:scratch2:
All of the OP's and members questionson this thread are valid ones IMHO-so far anyway.
How do you know if you don't ask ?
None of us with born with innate knowledge.
These threads provide a rich source of information, opinions and experiences.
Sure you have to pick and choose, filter if you may, but that's the way it's always been.

"Beancounters" can undo many ideas that Engineers create before and during production. After all, it is about PROFIT.

I think one "rule of thumb" is 1/2 lb. of polyfil per cu. ft..
Do you know the Mms of the 12" passive radiator?
I think the cone passive is 250 gms.

 

[automojo]

Good points.
No I don't El Seven might, but I highly doubt Ricky does.
As far as I know the best way to tune them is using a microphone/measuring system.
Sans that it's trial and error by ear.
I picked up one of these, and it's been invaluable with modding my AMT3's as I can save measurements etc., and not rely on my "audible memory",-which is not very reliable anyway-doubly so as the years go by.



http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-omnimic-v2-precision-measurement-system--390-792

 

[Stan man]

Here's a pair you don't see too often. They're circa 2000 1Ds with kapton diaphragms.
I literally had these wraped up in green moving plastic wrap since 2007. I had tweaked the hell out of these, mostly to bulk up and strengthen the poorly built cabinets. I coated the inside with (sound coat), from VMPS,. then lined them with PEs black hole 5, then acousta stuff, tuned by ear adding and subtracting and adding mass to the passives with putty. All to try to tune out and reduce the awe full mid bass hump in this design. There's probably more ,but that's as far as I can remember, at least for the bass.
Well think I did a pretty good job , because to me,after eight years, they sound pretty damn good. The highs are airier and more extended than I can remember. A lot of people didn't like the Kapton, but I think they're fantastic. I detect no bid bass nasties that plagued them when stock.
I've gotten into vintage speakers in between the last time I had these hooked up. acquiring a pair of the Monitors and 1bs to my collection.These need to be re-foamed as well.
I just had my JBL 100t3s in this location and from the mid bass up, there's no comparison. They're the closest thing to an open baffle that I'll ever venture to own. I just don't want to go there.

 

[Squirrely]

I will see what I can do for internal measurements before I button them up. I am applying some epoxy to the areas where the particle board has been disrupted. That will need drying time before I get inside to measure.

 

[automojo]

I will see what I can do for internal measurements before I button them up. I am applying some epoxy to the areas where the particle board has been disrupted. That will need drying time before I get inside to measure.

Yeah-give it a couple days for sure.
Much appreciated!:thmbsp:

 

[automojo]

:thmbsp:

Here's a pair you don't see too often. They're circa 2000 1Ds with kapton diaphragms.
I literally had these wraped up in green moving plastic wrap since 2007. I had tweaked the hell out of these, mostly to bulk up and strengthen the poorly built cabinets. I coated the inside with (sound coat), from VMPS,. then lined them with PEs black hole 5, then acousta stuff, tuned by ear adding and subtracting and adding mass to the passives with putty. All to try to tune out and reduce the awe full mid bass hump in this design. There's probably more ,but that's as far as I can remember, at least for the bass.
Well think I did a pretty good job , because to me,after eight years, they sound pretty damn good. The highs are airier and more extended than I can remember. A lot of people didn't like the Kapton, but I think they're fantastic. I detect no bid bass nasties that plagued them when stock.
I've gotten into vintage speakers in between the last time I had these hooked up. acquiring a pair of the Monitors and 1bs to my collection.These need to be re-foamed as well.
I just had my JBL 100t3s in this location and from the mid bass up, there's no comparison. They're the closest thing to an open baffle that I'll ever venture to own. I just don't want to go there.

Unfortunately the 1d's had those poor cabs. A mod of this may have been were I saw different bracing then the 1a's.
Good job un getting them up to snuff!:thmbsp:
My AMT3's didn't have any midbass hump, but needed more bass, and to play cleaner louder.
The Dayton's ST255-8's are what I found worked best in the AMT3's enclosures, but are very heavy, and require front baffle bracing/epoxying as well.
Too bad they don't have a neo version.
I think the front brace-between the woofer opening, cleans up the bass noticeably in itself.
The rest of the AMT3 cabs are a box in a box design, and fairly solid.
I treated the Dayton's as a traditional ported enclosure, and use combo Auralex, P.E> egg crate foam, and stock stuffing in the upper area around the midtube.
The Great Heil really needs clean, uncolored bass.
I really prefer the paper cones over the Bextrine/poly versions, as they seem more detailed-even in the AMT3 design where they are crossed over @250hz.

 

[Stan man]

Hey Mojo,
thanks. the Ds had a variation of woofer materials. Fortunately mine are paper. I had the (monitor) version, about the same circa with shiny poly woofers and passives, the worse sounding ESSs I've ever owned. Sold them with in three months .As these are re-running in, they're opening up and becoming more efficient and weighty in the bass. Just as how I remember tuning them. I can't say enough about the big- Great Heils. Wow!
Except that now I have some time to put my collection of speakers in rotation, that some are definitely, not my ESSs, will be on Craigs list soon.

 

[Stan man]

Oh I forgot to mention that these have been cross braced as well.
Here's what's been in rotation in the last couple of weeks. Not too shabby for comparison sake eh?

 

[automojo]

Oh I forgot to mention that these have been cross braced as well.
Here's what's been in rotation in the last couple of weeks. Not too shabby for comparison sake eh?

Not too shabby my friend!:thmbsp:
Good job on the cabs-The bracing is a must with that shape for sure.
I had a pair of PS1220's-3 ways-small heil, paper cone mid and pol woofers.
I liked them a lot, should have never sold them, but the bass is no where as detailed as they could have been.
Those would have been fun to mod.
If you get the chance, you might want to experiment with the foam wings around the Heil housing-and share your thoughts.
I have found it makes a pretty significant difference.
Maybe something that blended in well aesthetically with the "hoodless" AMT's.
Very nice looking setups!:thmbsp:
To0 bad ESS couldn't keep up with making a quality speaker, as they really have some classics that are hard to beat IMHO-even today.

 

[Stan man]

Correction,
as I'm re gluing the woofers to the foam, I now realize that they are not of the paper variety. They're Bextrene.
Yes, the big ESS AMTs are hard to beat and must be heard to appreciate,when properly tuned and set up.

 

[el seven]

"Beancounters" can undo many ideas that Engineers create before and during production. After all, it is about PROFIT.

This happened all too often with the entire line shortly after their heyday. It's worse now as there are no 'graduates' involved, only students. Profit has been the sole motivation for seemingly many years now.

But to travel back to the mid 70's when Nelson Pass and Dr Oskar Heil were in tandem as the chief designers and a lead scientist of all things, whom were largely responsible for the amt1a within our discussion here... whew. The minds at play.

 

[el seven]

Here's a pair you don't see too often. They're circa 2000 1Ds with kapton diaphragms.
I literally had these wrapped up in green moving plastic wrap since 2007. I had tweaked the hell out of these, mostly to bulk up and strengthen the poorly built cabinets. I coated the inside with (sound coat), from VMPS,. then lined them with PEs black hole 5, then acousta stuff, tuned by ear adding and subtracting and adding mass to the passives with putty. All to try to tune out and reduce the awe full mid bass hump in this design. There's probably more ,but that's as far as I can remember, at least for the bass.
Well think I did a pretty good job , because to me,after eight years, they sound pretty damn good. The highs are airier and more extended than I can remember. A lot of people didn't like the Kapton, but I think they're fantastic. I detect no bid bass nasties that plagued them when stock.
I've gotten into vintage speakers in between the last time I had these hooked up. acquiring a pair of the Monitors and 1bs to my collection.These need to be re-foamed as well.
I just had my JBL 100t3s in this location and from the mid bass up, there's no comparison. They're the closest thing to an open baffle that I'll ever venture to own. I just don't want to go there.

True to form those were the bastard series evolution. They really did sound incredibly poor with the inferior woofers and crap cabinets. I'm in agreement about those diaphragms, much better sounding than the comments on them in my experience and they've tested better than many of their teflon and mylar equivalents.

Much improvement to the rear wave energy can be achieved by adding mass to the ever-available generic passives it isn't even funny. Velodyne tuned their discs with suspension in a subsonic cube, a single strand of flat elastic was attached to the disc in V fashion and then suspended at two points on the opposite end of the cabinet. Seems foolhardy, but works wonderfully.

I like those ADS speeks, by the way!

 

[essNeff]

Weren't the "Poly" cones used to help prevent cone breakup and to get maxmum transient response to keep up with the Heil?
I have measuring equipment (Umik-1) and REW.
I have to admit I am intrigued by the "Time-alignment" mod of repositioning
"Herr Heil" 1 1/4 " back on my new cabinet. There is just enough room and the old holes would be covered by the gasket. If I decided to change it back, the new hole would still be covered by the gasket.

 

[Stan man]

Hey seven,
here's how much mass I needed to add to re- tune these Ds. And all the messing with the cabs and stuffing. Wore out the passive screw holes.

 

[essNeff]

Just epoxy in new T-nuts or Hurricane nuts of appropriate size.
Gorilla Glue works just fine but use sparingly as it expands quite a bit.
8-32 or 10-32 nuts and screws will work.

 

[automojo]

Hey seven,
here's how much mass I needed to add to re- tune these Ds. And all the messing with the cabs and stuffing. Wore out the passive screw holes.

Nice damping job.
I also have found a combination of stuffing very effective.
Hurricane nuts-8-32 work well for baffle screws, and are small enough for a easy install.
They need to be epoxied in however.

 

[Stan man]

Thanks essneff and Mojo,
notes taken.
Well after a 22 hour out of commission to repair / reglue the woofer on the left speaker, I'm back up and running- with a vengeance! During the down time, my modded/ upgraded L100t3s commendably took they 're place. With the 1Dds back in play, playing cd of Miles Davis, then Nirvana , Never mind album on vinyl, all that was coming through my mouth was MF- Holy S.
I'm being very careful and calculated in saying/claiming this. As far as I've heard through all my reference set ups, VMPS RM40s, AR 9s,and Khorns, the first two needing to be bi-amped , these take it's place as one of the Best, a real high quality music reproducing transducer/ speaker that I've ever heard any where!

 

[automojo]

Thanks essneff and Mojo,
notes taken.
Well after a 22 hour out of commission to repair / reglue the woofer on the left speaker, I'm back up and running- with a vengeance! During the down time, my modded/ upgraded L100t3s commendably took they 're place. With the 1Dds back in play, playing cd of Miles Davis, then Nirvana , Never mind album on vinyl, all that was coming through my mouth was MF- Holy S.
I'm being very careful and calculated in saying/claiming this. As far as I've heard through all my reference set ups, VMPS RM40s, AR 9s,and Khorns, the first two needing to be bi-amped , these take it's place as one of the Best, a real high quality music reproducing transducer/ speaker that I've ever heard any where!

Really amazing Stan, when you consider the AMT1d's were considered their worst addition.
Of course your mods have improved them, but add to that the claim the Great Heil must me crossed over-it can't possibly sound right, this and that, etc. etc.
And finally, comparing them to your great stock of high quality speakers.
IMHO it say's a lot.
Personally I think most of it is band wagoning, people only looking at graphs-stuck on their data, etc.
They most likely have never really listen to these speakers produce music-what they do best.
Or willing to figure out-like Stan-how to make this model work. DIY! Tweeking!
Awesome review, and experiences from a fellow Heil addict!!
I like it-Music Reproducers-fits the bill for this cat........
Gotta love it!:thmbsp:

 

[SleeperSupra]

. Sweet!

 

[SleeperSupra]

Did you put the phase plugs on the woofers? Did they make a noticeable difference?