PHC1 - MC275 w Sonus Faber Guarneri Memento/2 JL Audio F112's/Bryston 10B SUB active

[PHC1]

Yes, the one pair of speaker connections are a limiting factor, but you are bi-amping. I considered doing the same thing with a pair of F112's and my two MC275's before the 501's got my attention. The MC275 is simply a fantastic-sounding amp, and I will be keeping mine for a long time! If I were in your shoes, and looking for more tube power, I would be eying those MC2301's myself. Do the 2301's sound anything like a 275? your SF's must be very effecient, to be able to enjoy driving them with one 275!:yes:

There is quite a difference between "passive bi-amping" and "active bi-amping". In my case (active bi-amping) the 275 does not "see" or reproduce a full range signal and since most of the power is used up by the bass and the F112s take that load, the 275 has a much easier time driving the speakers. (Bryston 10B splits the signal before it gets to the 275 and F112s)

In a passive bi-amping (bi-wiring) setup both amps still see much of the full range and reproduce most of it except that it is absorbed by the crossover in the speaker and converted to waste/heat.

The 275 "drove" the SF Memento's all by itself but it sounds much, much better in the active bi-amp mode with the F112s doing the "heavy work". There is no congestion (straining while reproducing "macrodynamic peaks") and no tube glare (over-emphasis of the upper mids and the "presence region" during complex musical passages, aka "brightness and leanness").

 

[Yardbird1]

There is quite a difference between "passive bi-amping" and "active bi-amping". In my case (active bi-amping) the 275 does not "see" or reproduce a full range signal and since most of the power is used up by the bass and the F112s take that load, the 275 has a much easier time driving the speakers. (Bryston 10B splits the signal before it gets to the 275 and F112s)

In a passive bi-amping (bi-wiring) setup both amps still see much of the full range and reproduce most of it except that it is absorbed by the crossover in the speaker and converted to waste/heat.

The 275 "drove" the SF Memento's all by itself but it sounds much, much better in the active bi-amp mode with the F112s doing the "heavy work". There is no congestion (straining while reproducing "macrodynamic peaks") and no tube glare (over-emphasis of the upper mids and the "presence region" during complex musical passages, aka "brightness and leanness").

I went the active crossover route in front of my 275's and, again, was very happy with the results. I simply prefer better bass control and dynamics than the 275's alone can deliver. I ran a two monoblock setup for two years, but when I went to the B&W Nautilus 802's from the B&W Matrix 803S2's, I just needed more power, which I found in the 501's!
I think yours' was an excellent description of the effects of over-working a 275. But in my experience, I also heard another effect, diminished sound stage. When drove my 275's full-range, there was no comparison with the presentation crossed-over. With the actiive crossover in front, the amps just opened-up - like night and day. You might be very happy with two 275's and two F112's! I'm with JJensen (above), give those two 275's a listen before you go off the deep end with those 2301's! Of course, you may want to add a preamp with VU's, like a C500, maybe? This hobby inspires madness, but what a way to go!:thmbsp:

 

[PHC1]

But in my experience, I also heard another effect, diminished sound stage. When drove my 275's full-range, there was no comparison with the presentation crossed-over. With the actiive crossover in front, the amps just opened-up - like night and day.

This is often the case with more powerful amps, (bigger soundstage, better focus) including SS, even if you don't use all the power the amp is capable of. I know, some folks here have a hard time with this concept.

You might be very happy with two 275's and two F112's! I'm with JJensen (above), give those two 275's a listen before you go off the deep end with those 2301's! Of course, you may want to add a preamp with VU's, like a C500, maybe? This hobby inspires madness, but what a way to go!:thmbsp:

I may be able to bring in another 275 but I've heard mixed opinions on mono-ing 275's. Some say it looses some of its midrange magic. :scratch2:

 

[Yardbird1]

This is often the case with more powerful amps, (bigger soundstage, better focus) including SS, even if you don't use all the power the amp is capable of. I know, some folks here have a hard time with this concept.



I may be able to bring in another 275 but I've heard mixed opinions on mono-ing 275's. Some say it looses some of its midrange magic. :scratch2:

They sure sound good to me, but theres one way to find out! Let me know what you think.

 

[PHC1]

As a follow up, upon further tweaking the dual F112s, I think I finally nailed the perfect setting. Lowering the low pass slope to 12dB and leaving the high pass slope at 18dB and using 40Hz as the low pass setting and 50Hz as the high pass setting on the Bryston x/o results in even smoother integration. This way the upper bass region of the subs "creeps up" a little smoother to the point where the Memento are starting to "roll off" the bass through the 18dB high pass. This setup allows almost endless tweaking but well worth the results. (This is with the 501s driving the speakers)

 

[PHC1]

But wait, there is more... stay tuned.

 

[william.keith]

Lowering the low pass slope to 12dB and leaving the high pass slope at 18dB and using 40Hz as the low pass setting and 50Hz as the high pass setting on the Bryston x/o results in even smoother integration.

Using 40-50Hz settings for Hi and low pass filters is consistent with my findings with LS320s and PS112s. I first stared out setting the Hi pass filter at 80Hz but noticed a little bass boom. I then went to 60Hz and the situation improved. But Chuck Hinton suggested an even lower setting saying the 8" mid/woofer used in the LS320 is more musical than the 12" long extrusion woofer used in the PS112. Likewise, I believe I have found the right balance.

 

[PHC1]

For further info see here.... http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2409750#post2409750

 

[PHC1]

Using 40-50Hz settings for Hi and low pass filters is consistent with my findings with LS320s and PS112s. I first stared out setting the Hi pass filter at 80Hz but noticed a little bass boom. I then went to 60Hz and the situation improved. But Chuck Hinton suggested an even lower setting saying the 8" mid/woofer used in the LS320 is more musical than the 12" long extrusion woofer used in the PS112. Likewise, I believe I have found the right balance.

That would be about right for most subs. Not the Fathoms, they can go much higher and sound just like a great full range speaker would instead of a sub. :yes:

 

[two dot]

Does this mean that I could use my 501's to drive the bass drivers of my LS360's and use a 275 to run the Mids and tweets???

Interesting!!!

 

[PHC1]

Does this mean that I could use my 501's to drive the bass drivers of my LS360's and use a 275 to run the Mids and tweets???

Interesting!!!

How did you come up with that? I've never used the 501 and 275 at the same time! The key to bi-amping is having gain and input sensitivity of the amps match unless you like uneven frequency response.

 

[masterlu]

That would be about right for most subs. Not the Fathoms, they can go much higher and sound just like a great full range speaker would instead of a sub. :yes:

Likewise for the Gotham's. :yes:

 

[PHC1]

Likewise for the Gotham's. :yes:

No doubt, the Gotham is their "Reference" sub. :thmbsp:

 

[william.keith]

That would be about right for most subs. Not the Fathoms, they can go much higher and sound just like a great full range speaker would instead of a sub. :yes:

That is a remarkable engineering feat.

 

[PHC1]

That is a remarkable engineering feat.

Indeed. Check out all the reviews and awards. Every once in a while, someone gets it right. :thmbsp:

 

[masterlu]

Indeed. Check out all the reviews and awards. Every once in a while, someone gets it right. :thmbsp:

Quite the bargain too, I might add...

 

[TRgnik]

That would be about right for most subs. Not the Fathoms, they can go much higher and sound just like a great full range speaker would instead of a sub. :yes:

Unfortunately, for me, in my case with the LS360's this was not the case.

To me, my F113's are colored different for music, and sound like 2 different speakers if crossed at say 80hz for music. I just read in a mag today, that confirmed my thoughts that I have posted before, the low notes are short/ no air/exact. Compared to just the LS360's float sound.
Now Home Theater, is amazing crossed at 80hz.
Music, I have to use a low crossover to hide the sub line.

I have played with this set up for months along with professionals which made it worse.

I hope to have a better experience with my SF Auditors, because they know where/when to quit. When I finally buy a sub from Ivan for them.
Although a used Rel is on the short list for a change of pace.

 

[PHC1]

Unfortunately, for me, in my case with the LS360's this was not the case.

To me, my F113's are colored different for music, and sound like 2 different speakers if crossed at say 80hz for music. I just read in a mag today, that confirmed my thoughts that I have posted before, the low notes are short/ no air/exact. Compared to just the LS360's float sound.
Now Home Theater, is amazing crossed at 80hz.
Music, I have to use a low crossover to hide the sub line.

I have played with this set up for months along with professionals which made it worse.

I hope to have a better experience with my SF Auditors, because they know where/when to quit. When I finally buy a sub from Ivan for them.
Although a used Rel is on the short list for a change of pace.

The key in my system is the fact that I use an "active crossover". In a conventional setup, your speakers and subs are producing bass together. You can tweak the sub a lot but you are still getting sound from both the speakers and the sub. That is the difficult part, to get them to blend together.

In my system, I can adjust the crossover points to both the speakers and the sub. Whatever voice I "give" the sub, I "take" away from the speakers. There is no "doubling up" of the bass. Another words, I cross the sub over at 100Hz on the active crossover and the subs will do 17-100Hz, my Sonus Fabers will do approx 100Hz and up from their "high pass" crossover point. There is a tiny overlap depending on the "steepness" of the crossover slopes I choose. It can be 18dB, 12dB or 6dB

The F112s sound amazingly musical all by themselves at the highest level I have tried of 100Hz so far. The F112s are just as good if not better than most of the speakers I've owned in the past in the limited range they have to produce. Some people may have a hard time believing this, but why shouldn't a well designed sub sound just as good as a full range speaker's bass woofers??? Think about it. :yes:


Take a look at the Bryston, maybe it will make more sense.

 

[exracer]

people may have a hard time believing this, but why shouldn't a well designed sub sound just as good as a full range speaker's bass woofers??? Think about it. :yes:

The name of "sub" should be changed, or redefined. The JL line is essentially a single or double cone high quality bass speaker, or low frequency transducer, based on what I have heard. Most subs out there are designed for home theatre, where people are looking for big unmusical "thump". Previously before JL I think REL were the only subs worth considering for music. The true test is if you can hear the sub, and know it is a sub, it is not for music, and most people shopping for subs, if they can't hear it, won't buy it.

 

[PHC1]

The name of "sub" should be changed, or redefined. The JL line is essentially a single or double cone high quality bass speaker, or low frequency transducer, based on what I have heard. Most subs out there are designed for home theatre, where people are looking for big unmusical "thump". Previously before JL I think REL were the only subs worth considering for music. The true test is if you can hear the sub, and know it is a sub, it is not for music, and most people shopping for subs, if they can't hear it, won't buy it.

You are absolutely right. :yes: If you can "hear" a sub, forget it, it won't be musical. In my system I don't even know the subs are there, instead the bass appears to be coming from the speakers themselves, well actually not even the speakers, the kick drums/stand up bass, lower piano registers, appear where they should be on the soundstage depending on the actual recording and if the material has that really low sub-sonic bass, then the whole room lets me know what the performers intended. Listen to "Haggard" (folk metal) when they want you to "feel" their music, you will feel it, the whole room fills with such deep bass that it becomes part of the experience. :yes: I've never "heard" my subs in their location. :thmbsp: Before the subs, I only had a "hint" of what the performers wanted you to experience. I need to find some good "organ" music...