Pro-Ject Debut hum

[Dr Tinear]

You're an optimist. A small percentage, say no more than 2%, speed variation is pretty much the norm. Really, if you want accurate speed, you're talking digital, with the caveat you mention.

Like it or not, a small percentage speed increase is appealing to many, it makes for a fun, toe-tapping sound .

I should mention, by the way, that some Regas do allow for speed adjustment, whereas other makers, and I think a well known US manufacturer is one, do not.

A 2% error is 1/3 of a semitone, which many musicians could hear and which more than a few would find unsettling.

If I want accurate speed on a belt-drive turntable without a fine speed adjustment, I guess I'll have to rotate my AR XA into the system. The XA was guaranteed to meet NAB broadcast equipment specs for wow, flutter, rumble, and speed accuracy. The NAB speed spec allows no more than +0.3% speed error, and AR's end-of-line test checked every unit for conformance to this spec. The fact that Rega and others can't or won't match the speed accuracy and stability that AR achieved in 1962 on a $57 turntable puzzles me. I guess that's what the audiophile community gets for embracing a subjective-only approach to equipment testing and pooh-poohing objective tests as irrelevant.

 

[escobaria]

A 2% error is 1/3 of a semitone, which many musicians could hear and which more than a few would find unsettling.

If I want accurate speed on a belt-drive turntable without a fine speed adjustment, I guess I'll have to rotate my AR XA into the system. The XA was guaranteed to meet NAB broadcast equipment specs for wow, flutter, rumble, and speed accuracy. The NAB speed spec allows no more than +0.3% speed error, and AR's end-of-line test checked every unit for conformance to this spec. The fact that Rega and others can't or won't match the speed accuracy and stability that AR achieved in 1962 on a $57 turntable puzzles me. I guess that's what the audiophile community gets for embracing a subjective-only approach to equipment testing and pooh-poohing objective tests as irrelevant.

I agree. A 2% speed error is grossly unacceptable. The NAB specs are not so tight as to be an unreasonable standard for manufacturers to meet. That manufacturers such as Rega produce and sell off-speed turntables without any published specs tells me that don't give a damn about accuracy or performance. If the turntable is built to no published accuracy specs then there's no implied warranty, thus fewer returns due to poor performance.

But the bottom line is that many turntable buyers are simply oblivious to hum, wow & flutter and off-speed turntables. Just crank up the Led Zep and rock out dude!

 

[nalthien]

Jumping in here as a total table noob: I'm really curious as to what folks would recommend over the Pro-Ject or Rega options near this price point. I see tons of recommendations for these two brands when people are asking about a "$500 all-in" table to start to enjoy some vinyl.

The only challenge is that when people point out the shortcomings or defects in the manufacturing from these two, the proposed alternatives seem to always cost at least twice as much. I've been enjoying Dan's SOTAs over at his place; but, the reality is that I currently own about a dozen albums and I can't see that number growing to more than 50 in the next 12 months. As much as I hope that one day I'll have reason to go in for a really nice option, I really would like something that I can afford easily today and do a good job of letting me explore vinyl without obvious defects.

So, I guess the ultimate question is: can that be had in the $400-$500 price range? Or is that just not enough these days?

 

[armyslowrdr]

Going on a couple of hum free years with mine.

 

[grottyash]

True. You could have also paid attention to the many customer reviews on Amazon, and the gazillion people who told you in advance what you're gonna get for your hard earned cash before choosing to listen to the relatively small amount of eccentrics who rule out the 1200.

Whose norm? Where do these numbers pop up from? 2% speed variation is garbage. If one of my TT's would come close to half of that, I'd overhaul it. If it kept doing it - I'd trash it. The classic Thorens TD-160 specs for speed variations are %0.03. The Technics SL-1200 is %0.01. These are from 1972. Why do hipsters in 2015 are willing to accept speed variations that are 6 to 20 times higher than that, and call it 'the norm'? It's not a norm if you ask me! It's a manufacturing defect, or worst, a design failure. Technology should go forwards - not backwards. The worst part is these mfgr's invest big cache in brainwashing the unsuspecting public with massive on-line campaigns with collaboration of the major farty hi-fi mags, instead of making better turn tables. The saddest part, as I see it, is the public accepts it. :worried:

Deleted - see comment below, meant to say .2%. Actually DR T it was your comments about being out by a semitone that woke me up to my stupid error.

 

[4-2-7]

Jumping in here as a total table noob: I'm really curious as to what folks would recommend over the Pro-Ject or Rega options near this price point. I see tons of recommendations for these two brands when people are asking about a "$500 all-in" table to start to enjoy some vinyl.

The only challenge is that when people point out the shortcomings or defects in the manufacturing from these two, the proposed alternatives seem to always cost at least twice as much. I've been enjoying Dan's SOTAs over at his place; but, the reality is that I currently own about a dozen albums and I can't see that number growing to more than 50 in the next 12 months. As much as I hope that one day I'll have reason to go in for a really nice option, I really would like something that I can afford easily today and do a good job of letting me explore vinyl without obvious defects.

So, I guess the ultimate question is: can that be had in the $400-$500 price range? Or is that just not enough these days?

You know I'll be sraight up with you and can only say no for a new table. With Patience you can find a real quality table use and maybe something off the radar most would not even think of at that price point.

One of these threads posted asking the same question on these budget tables, they were local to us. I flat out told him not to buy it as he would be posting a how to fix thread like this. I told him I had a Technic SP-2000 he could have for a lot less. While we were talking about it for a few days I got a email from an estate liquidator. You seen some of the high end gear I came home with form there. Anyway they had an older Basis Audio 1400 Signature Turntable that cost around $3500 new. Long story short I had him meet me there and we got him that table for $750.00. He got a far better table and I'm happy he hasen't needed to post a fix it thread.

When I was setting it up for him.

I would also look at a SOTA Sapphire, you can find clean ones with a Sumiko arm FT3 or MMT for $500-$700. This table has the same suspention as my Star decks.

 

[nalthien]

You know I'll be sraight up with you and can only say no for a new table. With Patience you can find a real quality table use and maybe something off the radar most would not even think of at that price point.

Yeah man, I hear you! I think it's unfortunate as there should be some good options at that price point; but, the more research I do the less it seems likely. :thumbsdn:

I would also look at a SOTA Sapphire, you can find clean ones with a Sumiko arm FT3 or MMT for $500-$700. This table has the same suspention as my Star decks.

I'm actually considering the Sapphire. My understanding from chatting with you is that the primary difference between the Sapphire and the STAR is the vacuum platter. Not sure that's something I'd need on my first table.

 

[4-2-7]

Yeah man, I hear you! I think it's unfortunate as there should be some good options at that price point; but, the more research I do the less it seems likely. :thumbsdn:



I'm actually considering the Sapphire. My understanding from chatting with you is that the primary difference between the Sapphire and the STAR is the vacuum platter. Not sure that's something I'd need on my first table.

But you can look at it as you fist table or your last, your choice. I used to get into a hobby and buy something entry level because I didn't know fully if I would really like it or need it. End result I would advanc so quickly and get what was really good anyway. Then the starter stuff I would have something nobody esls wanted including myself.

I learnd to buy wise and things that have great value to others if I need to liquidate. Things you buy can be assets you know, it's an investmet that you can use. Your mac gear while you paid a lot for it, it will sell fast with hardly any loss, maybe even profit.

 

[grottyash]

Apologies, all, afraid had my figures confused. I should have said .2%, not 2%.

Out of interest, the Rega RP1 comes in at .18% speed accuracy and the Project Genie at .054%, while the Thorens TD 158 is -.21%. This latter has W&F figures of over .2% and did not pass the Miller Audio Research test suite.

For those who like the ATLP120, speed error was .012% but W&F .13%.

 

[Dr Tinear]

Looks like we're in agreement, grottyash. A turntable that's within 0.2% of perfect speed accuracy is good enough to satisfy even the pickiest listener and good enough to meet the NAB spec for speed accuracy.

The speed accuracy number for the Rega RP1 was interesting. Some of the company's past models ran fast by 1% or more, so I'm pleased to see that their new budget model gets this performance parameter right. It's a pity that the $2995 Pear Audio Kid Howard turntable that Art Dudley reviewed in the July Stereophile can't match the budget Rega for speed accuracy. Dudley measured the Kid Howard's speed at 34.14 to 34.25 RPM, which means that it was running 2.42% to 2.75% fast. That didn't stop Art from giving it a positive review, which leaves me wondering how golden his ears really are. :thumbsdn:

 

[kermit z]

Looks like we're in agreement, grottyash. A turntable that's within 0.2% of perfect speed accuracy is good enough to satisfy even the pickiest listener and good enough to meet the NAB spec for speed accuracy.

The speed accuracy number for the Rega RP1 was interesting. Some of the company's past models ran fast by 1% or more, so I'm pleased to see that their new budget model gets this performance parameter right. It's a pity that the $2995 Pear Audio Kid Howard turntable that Art Dudley reviewed in the July Stereophile can't match the budget Rega for speed accuracy. Dudley measured the Kid Howard's speed at 34.14 to 34.25 RPM, which means that it was running 2.42% to 2.75% fast. That didn't stop Art from giving it a positive review, which leaves me wondering how golden his ears really are. :thumbsdn:

And this makes a very good point. One really needs to audition tables they are looking at to make the right choice. This is of course hard to do now days. The Kid Howard speed issue is ridicules for a high end table.

 

[MichaelScarn]

You know I'll be sraight up with you and can only say no for a new table. With Patience you can find a real quality table use and maybe something off the radar most would not even think of at that price point.

One of these threads posted asking the same question on these budget tables, they were local to us. I flat out told him not to buy it as he would be posting a how to fix thread like this. I told him I had a Technic SP-2000 he could have for a lot less. While we were talking about it for a few days I got a email from an estate liquidator. You seen some of the high end gear I came home with form there. Anyway they had an older Basis Audio 1400 Signature Turntable that cost around $3500 new. Long story short I had him meet me there and we got him that table for $750.00. He got a far better table and I'm happy he hasen't needed to post a fix it thread.

I would also look at a SOTA Sapphire, you can find clean ones with a Sumiko arm FT3 or MMT for $500-$700. This table has the same suspention as my Star decks.

I've been waiting 2 years to find ANY audio equipment and so far nothing. No finds at thrift stores, goodwill, or craigslist. It's hard to find anything when you're in an area that has been poor since the 30s. No one had any turntable that wasn't in all-in-one unit where I'm from. Being a college student still I can't pay more than 500 dollars just for a turntable when I still need to find a receiver and speakers, so really used isn't always the best option.
I'll probably have to stick with headphones and a DAC.