cfoster said:
Are you talking about Sony's mass-market crap, which is just as bad as anyone else's mass-market crap or are you comparing to Sony's ES line over the years?
Vintage CD players
- Thread starter MikeJ
- Start date
Are you talking about Sony's mass-market crap, which is just as bad as anyone else's mass-market crap or are you comparing to Sony's ES line over the years?
gpdavis2 said:
No, the mass market stuff however, I wonder if the "ES" line is really any better. I have a cassette deck which is an ES line product and as far as I am concerned it's not much better than the reqular stuff. Sorry, but I'm really getting down on all Asian products; Sony included.
Clyde
andy
Super Member
Much of the ES stuff is exactly the same as the "mass market crap". Looking through Sony's service manuals many ES and non-ES products even share the same service manuals. They just change the face and add a few buttons to make it an ES. Only the top of the line ES is actually different. The most shameful thing they do with some ES components is to glue a thick metal plate to the inside of the top cover to make it feel heavier.
lorne
Sonic Lizard
I noted that you did say "Much of the ES stuff ..." and thus left room for possible exceptions, one of which I will describe:
About a year ago I bought a Sony 222ES CDP of 1987 vintage. At home I took the hood off and found a neat layout, an anti-resonant ceramic transport chassis, Duorex and Muse caps, a 2-2.5 mm thick steel bottom plate, a Bando transformer, an OFC detachable mains cord and plastic injection mouldings exhibiting engineering forethought towards rigidity. There was something glued to the hood; it's some kind of resonance deadening material.
Soon thereafter I compared the Sony's sound with three other CD players I have here: a NAD 502 and a Marantz CD-6000OSE. These are what I call 'mass market' units with some 'integrity'. Then there was my Kenwood DP-990SG — definitely not mass-market and seriously crammed full of discrete electronics and a metal die-cast transport. So the Sony was flanked on one side by an upscale, vintage CDP on one side, and two representatives of a more developed technology on the other. Well, I was impressed to the extent that I promptly adopted the Sony into the family line-up.
As a comparably vintage player, it is a bit late in the day to worry about the Sony's bang-for- the-buck factor. But let us review some differences among its contemporary stable mates:
The differences between the 222ES and 777ES model are very considerable — no doubt there. But the ES concept at the lower end may have been to take a more bread and butter design and throw better build quality and superior parts into it. Thus the 222ES and the 333ES are a foreshadowing of a richer taste — not exactly high end, but a distance away from the mass-market drones that were out there at the time. Once you get into the 555ES you are into die cast transport parts and an upscale PSU. Then there is the 777ES — nice machine, and if I ever find one (or a Sansui 717) at a good price on one of my trolls I will fish it out.
Shortly after I bought this unit, I went to the local Sony Corp. offices and servicing depot here in Sendai where I had some work done before. They were very good to me and provided some photocopy pages from the CDP-222ES service manual. I can report that the manual is distinctly model specific. (BTW transport spares are still available.)
Although I am instructed and cautioned by your posting, at the same time I am a bit concerned that your statement might be misunderstood by some readers. Sony does seem to get a bad rap from audiophiles. And these days, as good, affordable audio seems to be threatened by a number of factors that we can't get into here, I think that even late-in-the-day congrats are in order for decent products which show some integrity – even for an industrial giant like Sony. And, even if it is only to encourage the board of directors in the future.
My current collection consists of 12 different manufacturing names from Japan, Europe and America. Among my Sony units, there is a 333ES cassette deck which rivals my Nakamichi 480 for sound, and in terms of utility thrashes it. The TC-D5 portable recorder enjoyed a production period closing on 25 years, and it remains an impressive, never-to-be-repeated engineering and production achievement to this day.
From what I have seen on the reseller's shelves here, the older Sony 'ES' products were built to a price reflecting various grades. They seem to have competed very well with comparable offerings of the day from industry rivals, and at least in one case inspired an industrial and marketing competition that produced some brilliant examples of very affordable audio technology which remain collectibles nearly 20 years later. I could start naming, pointing and comparing and you may or may not be impressed. Let's just say that while I am enjoying my ES CDP, I'll also be looking out for what you say.
andy said:
Your statement is distinctly wrong. None of the mass market Sony products use MOSFET output stages. None have the capability to handle all levels of phono inputs like does the ES series. The Sony ES cassette deck I just sold due to lack of use was an excellent unit and provided a comparable level of sound to the Nakamichi it replaced. I've owned two ES series CDPs that provided excellent performance and had unit specific manuals (no other unit was mentioned). Same with the ES series amps, preamps and integrated amps that I have owned. The integrated amp had a manual that covered all three ES series integrated amps, but no other integrated amps. Same with the cassette deck manual. And neither my -80ES or -90ES preamp manual covered another model, nor did the -77ES, -80ES or -90Es amp manual. All were specific to only that model.
No only that, but these products still command a high price on the used market. The Sony -80ES preamp sells for $500+ and the -90ES for even more (when you can find one). Same with the amps, integrated amps (also scarce) and CDPs. Perhaps you have had less than good luck with yours (if, indeed, you have had one) but I have had only excellent performance from mine and would not hesitate to own again due to their excellent sound and build quality.
john_w
Miscreant
yrly said:
Mine does say "D-5" on the back, but is this the same unit? The D-50 was released in November of '84. The manufacture date on mine is July of '85 - only 8 months later. I have not seen any reference to a D-5 on the web, but I've seen several mentions and a couple of pictures of the D-50. It does look exactly the same as mine.
Is the D-5 the American version of the D-50? I know that mine has with an optional battery pack (Big, clunky sucker that attaches to the whole back of the unit). Could that be the difference?
crooner
Tube Marantzed
john_w said:
The D-5 was the version of the D-50 sold in the US, possibly in other countries as well. Exact same unit. I have a very early example manufactured in December 1984 (20 years old!). Beautiful construction and performs flawlessly today. Great player and a classic in the making. Hang on to yours!
lorne
Sonic Lizard
Yes, I am sure that all of us can accept your point in regard to the graded differences evident in the Sony ES line. After all, the extreme ends are separated by a good chunk of $1000 in some cases. I could even be tedious and upload images to illustrate it. But I am still wanting to know WHAT specific models I am supposed to be aware of.
I for one have been patient with this view of yours, even though I have underlined a notable exception — which I also projected onto a wider field from some experience of having watched this product line trade on the shelves of Japanese resellers. Mr Davis has not been in agreement with your view either. Considering the central element in the thread, I think it is incumbent upon you to provide us with an education and tell us what specific models to look out for! Your knowledge of the specifics would be a valuable addition to this thread, and a noteworthy post in the site archive as a whole. Now that you have cast a shadow over the ES line, why be shy of the details. Lord knows we crave details in forums such as these, or why do we bother with them?
I am not saying that you are wrong — I just wanna know what I am supposed to be aware of.
So far, I have not been able to find any evidence of mere cosmetic variation — UNLESS one classifies upscale passive electronic parts as cosmetic features, as opposed to engineered improvements. (And there are those who do argue this.) Even in ES products for which I have not been able to pull the hood, I have stuck on my 2X cheaters and peered into any louvers, vents or holes I could find. What ALWAYS shows up are better than bread and butter passive parts, even in the bottom rungs of the ES line. According to my line of thinking, a board stuffed with low ESR Silmic or Muse electrolytic caps and fast diodes is not the same as a board found on standard—model—anything.
If you please sir, I want to know .... models, years, notable exampleS ... etc.
john_w
Miscreant
To some extent, this reminds me of the old Integra-vs.-Onkyo debate, before Integra broke off and produced their own product line. If you spoke with someone who sold Integra, they'd tell you about tighter tolerances, more manual construction and QC, etc. If you spoke with someone who sold Onkyo, they'd tell you there ain't a flippin' difference between the two, except for the chassis style, the label, the market they're sold in and the price. To look at the outside of each unit and the specs, either could be right. 
Since I don't know any key insiders at Onkyo, I suppose I'll never find out either. (I've certainly heard some confident opinions, though! Unfortunately, they went in both directions.)
I wanted to rip the chassis off right in the store and at least check for different parts, but I have a slight aversion to being thrown out or arrested.
Since I don't know any key insiders at Onkyo, I suppose I'll never find out either. (I've certainly heard some confident opinions, though! Unfortunately, they went in both directions.)I wanted to rip the chassis off right in the store and at least check for different parts, but I have a slight aversion to being thrown out or arrested.
andy
Super Member
The specific model I was thinking of was the CDP-C705 which is basically the same as the CDP-C85ES. They share the same service manual, use the same circuit boards and mechanism. The ES has a direct access keypad, wood sides and a metal front panel. There may be some minor circuit changes, but nothing major enough to require separate schematics. The build quality is certainly the same. I wasn't trying to say that ES is junk. I was just pointing out that there's a cross over point between the regular and ES line where the difference is mostly cosmetic. I just worked on a CDP-C8ESD which has a heavy metal plate glued to the inside of the top cover to make it feel heavier. This seems to be standard in ES CD players until you get to the top of the line. It looks like this one shares the CDP-C800 and CDP-C700 chassis. I haven't had any current models open, but I'm sure there's still the same cross over between the high end regular and low end ES.
My point was that ES doesn't guarantee you something significantly better than non-ES. You still have to shop carefully if you want a quality improvement that's more than skin deep.
My point was that ES doesn't guarantee you something significantly better than non-ES. You still have to shop carefully if you want a quality improvement that's more than skin deep.
I thought I'd resurrect this thread, I just found a Magnavox CDB-460. It looks very similar to the CDB-650 except the drop down control. Has the vertical see-through door, and clearly says "Made in Belgium" on the back, and a heat sink protrudes from the back. It was made in 1986, has what first appears to be a pure copper circuit board inside, a fairly substantial transformer, for a CD player, two op-amps and a few other IC's. The unit I bought was filled with dust inside, and is having trouble tracking, has the swing arm type laser, I spent some time cleaning the dust out, and I'm thinking I will need to do some disassembly to get to the laser part to clean it. It does fine for about 2 minutes then tracks all over, I hope it's not an IC, I'm hoping just from dirt, because it's consistant when it does this. I was surprised not to find a single ceramic capacitor inside, all the small caps were polystyrene. The transport seems pretty beefy in it and for the very short of time I could hear it, has great potential. If nothing else I hope to find another later and then have a parts unit.
CELT said:
Watch it!! Them's fightin' words!!
(Just kidding of course!!)
axel
Super Member
D.a.d.
I own the Continental Edison DAD-9370 (aka JVC XL-V1, aka Hitachi DA-1000, aka etc) that I bought a few years back and was pleasantly surprised by the quality! I had expected horrible peakyscreechy stuff and it really isn't playing that bad.
Just in case, I have a section dedicated to 1st and 2nd generation players (www.thevintageknob.org) and wonder if any of you would share internal views of your players so we all could go deeper into the Hitachi/Philips rebadges as well as the extent of the main parts swaps between brands? I can't buy all the players myself to post all of these properly
so any help would be greatly appreciated.
Since I've just discovered this revived thread, there are too many quotes for me to... quote so I'll let it at that. Please check my D.A.D. section (Digital Audio Disc, nothing personal and see if you can spare an image or two, even if the unit isn't online yet.
The fav' units in Japan, back then, were the Sony CDP-701ES and Yamaha CD-1 (best-sellers as well as best reviewed).
And if anyone spots a Pioneer PD-1, please let me know (or the Phase Linear 9500 version)! Ok I'll stop here or I'll never stop
I own the Continental Edison DAD-9370 (aka JVC XL-V1, aka Hitachi DA-1000, aka etc) that I bought a few years back and was pleasantly surprised by the quality! I had expected horrible peakyscreechy stuff and it really isn't playing that bad.
Just in case, I have a section dedicated to 1st and 2nd generation players (www.thevintageknob.org) and wonder if any of you would share internal views of your players so we all could go deeper into the Hitachi/Philips rebadges as well as the extent of the main parts swaps between brands? I can't buy all the players myself to post all of these properly
so any help would be greatly appreciated.Since I've just discovered this revived thread, there are too many quotes for me to... quote so I'll let it at that. Please check my D.A.D. section (Digital Audio Disc, nothing personal
and see if you can spare an image or two, even if the unit isn't online yet.The fav' units in Japan, back then, were the Sony CDP-701ES and Yamaha CD-1 (best-sellers as well as best reviewed).
And if anyone spots a Pioneer PD-1, please let me know (or the Phase Linear 9500 version)! Ok I'll stop here or I'll never stop
SherwoodPower said:
Just picked up one of those Harman/Kardon HD-200's and I have to say it is a wonderful CDP in every aspect. It was absolutely mint and was $15 at the local GW. Just saw one advertised with some edge-wear sell on eBay for around $20 plus $15 to ship. Nice, under-rated CDP for the money.
Retro
Great news, I fixed my Magnavox CDB-460. I had to take off the faceplate, 3 screws, and 1 screw holding down the transport and it slid right out, disconnected the cables via the connectors, flipped it over then removed the laser assembly, which is one round magnetic piece which rotates in a semi-circle, that was 2 screws. Oiled and cleaned the bearings at the ends, cleaned off the magnets. Reassembled and now it seems to work perfectly. The cd tray sometimes sticks against the door, so I have to adjust the height some, shouldn't be difficult, a couple small washers should do it. I only had a chance to listen to one CD so far, but I really like how this sounds. I think I'll try swapping out the opamps and see if it gets even better. It does seem to have a vinyl like quality to it, sound is very smooth and even across the frequency range. I'll post my mods in the DIY section when I get to that later.
Well, all boards I believe are copper, but this one is a solid copper on top. So it does give the impression the board is of a solid copper design. I guess if it were a solid copper board then everything would be shorted?? I guess they just left the traces off the top for better shielding is all I can guess? I haven't taken it out of the chassis yet, but I just bought 2-8pin DIP sockets so I can swap op-amps in it and want to install those possibly tonight. I have several different op-amps I want to experiment with and see how they sound on this. I've been playing this CD now most of the weekend, mixed with some vinyl, with hardly any problems. The door occaisionally sticks when the tray opens, but I'll try to fix that tonight also. I will take some pics tonight when I open it up again and post for everyone to see the innards of this. My guess is it's the same as the CDB-650, without a few of the frills?
lorne
Sonic Lizard
Copper
I have not seen boards plated like this. But since coming to Japan, I have seen a lot more copper under the hood. Thin copper plate on chassis panels is a favored hallmark of Japanese domestic hi-end audio. It makes for stupendous looking brochures. And it is a nice touch when years after the model is inaugurated someone like me can buy such beauty for a fraction of the original price. My A&D GX-Z9100EX cassette player, as well as my Pioneer A-717 integrated amp have a lot of copper plated chassis panels, including the bottom plates. This looks great and it must contribute something to sheilding as well. I love this vintage audio.
I have not seen boards plated like this. But since coming to Japan, I have seen a lot more copper under the hood. Thin copper plate on chassis panels is a favored hallmark of Japanese domestic hi-end audio. It makes for stupendous looking brochures. And it is a nice touch when years after the model is inaugurated someone like me can buy such beauty for a fraction of the original price. My A&D GX-Z9100EX cassette player, as well as my Pioneer A-717 integrated amp have a lot of copper plated chassis panels, including the bottom plates. This looks great and it must contribute something to sheilding as well. I love this vintage audio.
