Dual 1219 Wow&Flutter?

[loudnoises]

The thing about the original idlers is that they're 50 years old at this point. I've two original, one was purchased nos and was still in the wrapper. The one on the table was like new. When i put in the audiovault idler, the difference in grip was notable. Almost to a ridiculous degree as you could hear it almost chattering as it engaged. This might be the difference in start torque. All three idlers I've used are different, all have different edge profiles, all work equally as well on keeping speed. The audiovault has a slight edge being quieter and with notably less rubber mass, possibly better sleeve bearing. I would not hesitate to use an original roller if it was in good condition but the audiovault does seem to be a step up. The difference is more measurable than audible i think.

Congrats on the fix, I know it's intimidating when the wires don't speak to you. Especially on something as invaluable as your father's table, which is probably going to outlast all of us.

 

[Mr Boochie]

Carry on amigos......oh, and the W&F is much, much better now and I think I can dial it in a bit better once I "dress" that idler in a more proper, controlled sort of way. Just gotta wait for my /buddy across the street with the drill press (and fabulous shop) to recover from his knee surgery enough for me to go over and set things up.

I'm glad you got it sorted out.

School of Hard Knocks has taught me to take many "before" photos in every new endeavor.

 

[Mr Boochie]

The thing about the original idlers is that they're 50 years old at this point. I've two original, one was purchased nos and was still in the wrapper. The one on the table was like new. When i put in the audiovault idler, the difference in grip was notable. Almost to a ridiculous degree as you could hear it almost chattering as it engaged. This might be the difference in start torque. All three idlers I've used are different, all have different edge profiles, all work equally as well on keeping speed. The audiovault has a slight edge being quieter and with notably less rubber mass, possibly better sleeve bearing. I would not hesitate to use an original roller if it was in good condition but the audiovault does seem to be a step up. The difference is more measurable than audible i think.

Congrats on the fix, I know it's intimidating when the wires don't speak to you. Especially on something as invaluable as your father's table, which is probably going to outlast all of us.

I'd go with a new idler, too. It's like an old clutch on a car. You notice it on initial take-off when friction is most important.

The problem with natural rubber (which I am almost sure the German Dual used) is ozone degradation over time. There's no stopping it — you can only slow it down. I know lots of vintage BMW and Porsche guys that restore their cars. They will put NOS rubber moldings into sealed plastic bags, vacuum out the air, and put the bags into freezers. Even then, the rubber is still breaking down. I believe it's a 20-year half-life under the best of conditions. If you can find one, hunt for a quality aftermarket-made synthetic alternative.

 

[loudnoises]

I'd go with a new idler, too. It's like an old clutch on a car. You notice it on initial take-off when friction is most important.

The problem with natural rubber (which I am almost sure the German Dual used) is ozone degradation over time. There's no stopping it — you can only slow it down. I know lots of vintage BMW and Porsche guys that restore their cars. They will put NOS rubber moldings into sealed plastic bags, vacuum out the air, and put the bags into freezers. Even then, the rubber is still breaking down. I believe it's a 20-year half-life under the best of conditions. If you can find one, hunt for a quality aftermarket-made synthetic alternative.

From my e39 days, if it's bmw rubber you get 10 years. Maybe

 

[Mr Boochie]

From my e39 days, if it's bmw rubber you get 10 years. Maybe

Let me dive off-topic briefly, with a car near to my heart.

I restored a BMW 1602 and 2002Ti many moons ago. After the second set of windows and door seal kits from Germany, a company in Santa Barbara started making quality synthetic replacements. Bless their souls!

The Ti looked like this one. But with a blue exterior.

 

[Mr Boochie]

From my e39 days, if it's bmw rubber you get 10 years. Maybe

BMW Hot Rod. Was it a V8?

 

[Fishead]

Thank you for the very kind words, amigo......and yes, those wires were certainly not speaking to me, or else I was not listening very well, which is what my Dad would have likely suggested. Whew! Glad all that is sorted and yes, I may go for an Audiovault idler at some point, but for now I'm going to do as some have suggested, just relax and enjoy the table! I just adjusted the tonearm height just a tad so that I'm getting a little more clearance over the height of the record, about 1/4" right now which seems about right just before the stylus descends and it nails the lead in groove every time! Had to re-set the VTF, of course, after messing with it so much that was expectable but I have it perfectly dialed in now.

I'm glad you got it sorted out.

School of Hard Knocks has taught me to take many "before" photos in every new endeavor.

Right, but the thing is, I DID take many, many photos before and still got the wires on there wrong in the end!!! That's what is so troublesome and I guess all I can say is that it's a good thing something was nudging me......something......to go back and look at the before pictures and compare them to the after pictures and that's when I saw it!!! All's well that ends well, and you know I love happy endings!!! Carry on, amigos.....

PS - When I get time, I'll have to dig out my 1976 BMW 2002 pictures.....loved that car!!!

 

[Mr Boochie]

Right, but the thing is, I DID take many, many photos before and still got the wires on there wrong in the end!!! That's what is so troublesome and I guess all I can say is that it's a good thing something was nudging me......something......to go back and look at the before pictures and compare them to the after pictures and that's when I saw it!!! All's well that ends well, and you know I love happy endings!!! Carry on, amigos.....

Look at all the appropriate before photos and one wire, one solder, one connection at a time.

 

[Fishead]

NOW you tell me

 

[Mr Boochie]

NOW you tell me

You know how it goes. The School of Hard Knocks is a self-learned process.

 

[Fishead]

.....and again, thanks for hangin' in there with me Booch!

 

[tourmax]

Right, but the thing is, I DID take many, many photos before and still got the wires on there wrong in the end!!!

If it's any comfort, you're not the first to have a problem with not actually "seeing" what's in the picture and you certainly won't be the last.

It's why I suggested just walking away from it for a day or two. "Fresh eyes" and all that jazz.....

 

[loudnoises]

BMW Hot Rod. Was it a V8?

Nah, just a sport wagon. I miss that car, not the headaches.

 

[Fishead]

If it's any comfort, you're not the first to have a problem with not actually "seeing" what's in the picture and you certainly won't be the last.

It's why I suggested just walking away from it for a day or two. "Fresh eyes" and all that jazz.....

Ja, that is a good idea Herr tourmax, and why I like to at least sleep on things. It's amazing what ideas I wake up with, and I am well aware of how the unconscious works, especially when you're not awake to mess with it. Nancy thinks I dream about these things and swears I was talking about idlers in my sleep a couple nights ago......maybe I was, eh?

Now I'm gonna give it a rest for a few days and then dive in to my PX-3, which needs to be re-capped! Wish me luck, and in German we would say "Halz und Beinbruch!" Onwards amigos, to the adventures ahead! Can't wait to get the camper back on the truck and head up into the high country......just gotta get a few things wrapped up with the stereo in there and it should be good to go!

 

[Mr Boochie]

Ja, that is a good idea Herr tourmax, and why I like to at least sleep on things. It's amazing what ideas I wake up with, and I am well aware of how the unconscious works, especially when you're not awake to mess with it. Nancy thinks I dream about these things and swears I was talking about idlers in my sleep a couple nights ago......maybe I was, eh?

Now I'm gonna give it a rest for a few days and then dive in to my PX-3, which needs to be re-capped! Wish me luck, and in German we would say "Halz und Beinbruch!" Onwards amigos, to the adventures ahead! Can't wait to get the camper back on the truck and head up into the high country......just gotta get a few things wrapped up with the stereo in there and it should be good to go!

It's always good to reset the old brain. I tend to fixate on a preconceived notion of how things should be and not be open to how they are. That limits my problem-solving and creative thinking, out of the box.