Dual 1219 Wow&Flutter?

[NoTransistors]

What did I tell you a few days ago?
The motor must be running on only 1/2 of the field windings. I still say it is not set into the right pins in the power box.

 

[Fishead]

What did I tell you a few days ago?
The motor must be running on only 1/2 of the field windings. I still say it is not set into the right pins in the power box.

And I couldn't agree with you more because everything else seems to be within tolerances. Only running on 1/2 of the field windings would explain the slowness in getting up to speed...... @loudnoises says his gets to 33 1/3 in less than one turn of the platter, mine takes 12 turns!!! You also said don't touch anything with regard to the wiring, so I haven't and have been waiting on your kind instructions as to what to do. I can put the wires from the motor on any of the pins that are necessary and you saw in the picture where they are now. The beast is lurking in the details of how to arrange the wires given that there is a switch for 110/220 involved......that seems to be where everyone is stuck, me included, but since I have tested the field coils in terms of resistance and they look good, it can only be that the motor is not getting the voltage that it needs to make the necessary horsepower. Let me know what you think and thanks for your checking in......being stuck is not much fun

 

[NoTransistors]

I have nothing here to reference.
Find which two pins are actually supplying current to a field winding with turntable powered up. But first undo the motor from power block. I have my reasons.
Connect black and green to one pin and yellow and white to the other pin. This easily eliminates the confusing hook up in the power block.
Try to not fry yourself, please.

 

[tourmax]

Found this on a google search: https://www.dual-reference.com/Troubles/voltage.htm

Perhaps it at least gives you a starting point.

Although if it was working before and you say you haven't disconnected the wires in the switchbox, I'm not sure how the motor coils can be mis-wired....

 

[tourmax]

Here's a discussion about a 1219 table/motor (with pics) in German: https://www.dual-board.de/index.php?thread/74158-1219-motor-kaputt/

Google translate the page if you don't Sprechen Sie Deutsch...

 

[Fishead]

Thanks guys, I will wrap my brain around it all and see if I can't get it figured out. @NoTransistor, I could use a little more help to make sure I understand you. Your'e saying disconnect the motor from the power block first by removing the four wires from the block. There are four wires, green, black, white and orange that have tabs at the ends which fit over the posts in the power block. To disconnect the motor from the power block means taking these wires off of their post.

Then, connect the power plug and test for voltage with a multimeter set to A/C at each pin, assuming that the common will remain so and that is on pin #2. The next pin is pin #3 and has the green wire connected to it. Next is pin #4, which has the white wire connected to it and is where the hot lead goes from the power. Pin #3 has the orange wire connected and pin #2 has the black. The white and black go to one field coil, the orange and green to the other which is what I discovered when I was trying to measure the resistance so that much I know. So, in order for both coils to be supplied with current, how would one connect those four wires with the hot and the common wires from the wall socket? I'm assuming from your comments that with the power plugged into the power block, connect the green and black wires to the commons pin and the orange and white to the hot pin, or vice versa. How would I do that and still have the motor disconnected from the power block? Sorry, I'm not in my strong suit here but can probably manage if I ask enough questions.

 

[SmileyFaceEQ]

On the back side of the cover there is often a sticker that shows the configurations for the 2 wiring schemes.

 

[Fishead]

Here's a discussion about a 1219 table/motor (with pics) in German: https://www.dual-board.de/index.php?thread/74158-1219-motor-kaputt/

Google translate the page if you don't Sprechen Sie Deutsch...

Thanks for the link sir, and I just so happen to......und I kann auch etwas Deutsch lesen! I'll report back on this.

 

[Fishead]

On the back side of the cover there is often a sticker that shows the configurations for the 2 wiring schemes.

I had not thought to look there, thanks for that!

 

[SmileyFaceEQ]

I had not thought to look there, thanks for that!

Never hurts to clean the posts up while you are in there. I have encountered a few where the posts were broken off. I repaired them by sharpening the end of some solid core wire and pressing it in and soldering it .

 

[Mr Boochie]

Just for the sake of clarity, have you tried any suggestions? To rule them out as the problem?

Thanks!

PS: You have downloaded the service manual. Right?

Dual 1219 Service Manual.

 

[tourmax]

Thanks for the link sir, and I just so happen to......und I kann auch etwas Deutsch lesen! I'll report back on this.

You’re lucky there then. I have to use translate to read and post on that forum and although its functional, I’m sure the subtle details of the discussion are lost….

 

[Fishead]

Just for the sake of clarity, have you tried any suggestions? To rule them out as the problem?

Thanks!

PS: You have downloaded the service manual. Right?

Dual 1219 Service Manual.

Hey Booch, yes I have tried everything short of connecting the motor leads differently as I'm not at a point where I understand what the consequences of making a mistake in that realm may be. I'm studying the links provided right now and yes, I have the service manual and have referred to it numerous times here as well. I'm just a bit frustrated too at the moment because no matter what I do, I can't seem to get the motor to run at a sufficiently fast enough speed.....or else it really is the idler wheel that is not grabbing the pulley properly but, I have also done the dressing of that wheel, taking some of the old surface off, just a minute bit though, and will try to do so again using a different, more controlled methodology. I don't have any of the stuff that renews rubber and will try to get some of that next. Is there anything that can be used in its place? I had heard once that a light rub with brake cleaner does the job but again, don't want to do anything that does more harm than good. I had the motor apart again tonight and inspected everything in there, putting it back together very carefully and again, listening for the sweet spot as far as tightening the screws based on how quiet I could get it to run. Like I have said, everything seems to be in splendid order, except that it just doesn't turn fast enough. I also replaced the rubber sleeve that I spoke of earlier, it came in the mail today from Adam at Turntable Experts, along with a couple of spare ball bearings in case one got lost. I have removed and cleaned and re-lubed the speed selector switch as well and it operates beautifully, so smooth with a very positive feel to it. So yeah, I have indeed been trying all sort of stuff based on the suggestions that have been made, just haven't figured out the underlying problem yet but I am confident I will.....thanks for the link to the service manual, kind of you. That was one of the first things that I did and it was available on VE, luckily.

 

[Mr Boochie]

Try the Renue. I recommend the MG Chemical 408C stuff. It's an excellent agent for all kinds of rubber applications.

I can't remember you stating this, but the turntable did operate correctly at one time. Can you think of an event or a modification/fix that may have triggered this latest problem?

Thanks!

 

[Fishead]

OK, I'll have a look for the Renue. The turntable has run slow since I have had it from my Dad, and I don't know if it ran slow when he had it but he bought it new in Germany and it does have the switch that converts it from 220 to 110v. It has the correct pulley for 60hz. I remember bringing it home, here in New Mexico, from Kentucky and it rode in the floorboard behind my seat cushioned by pillows and blankets with the arm locked down and tied. I had the cover in a separate, soft blanket so the thing was babied all the way here. To answer your question, I can not think of any event that might have triggered the slow speed. There have been no modifications other than the ones I have attempted to address this problem. I think @NoTransistors is more than likely correct, that only one of the field coils is operating but I'm not seeing any problem with continuity, both coils measure very similarly close to 340ohms so it has to be in the voltage supply somehow. I have not yet tried his suggestion of combining the green and black, orange and white leads and hooking it up to power that way because I'm not very confident I am understanding him clearly. I've asked for more information and will await his response. I'm tempted to get one of those Canadian idlers like @loudnoises has but am holding off throwing parts at it until I know more about whether of not that is actually needed. If, for instance, the wiring was somehow not done properly and a change will get both coils working and the table runs at speed with no problems, it will not be necessary to get a new idler wheel. I know it's difficult when you can't see what I'm seeing, but this idler looks really like a new one, is supple and the edge is grippy to my feel. There will be an answer and I'm pretty patient! Thanks for all your support amigo!

 

[Mr Boochie]

The turntable has run slow since I have had it from my Dad.

But did it work okay for your Dad in Germany (with a 220VAC outlet)? I presume you've also already looked at the thread?

I enlarged the connection box from the link if that helps.

 

[SmileyFaceEQ]

OK, I'll have a look for the Renue. The turntable has run slow since I have had it from my Dad, and I don't know if it ran slow when he had it but he bought it new in Germany and it does have the switch that converts it from 220 to 110v. It has the correct pulley for 60hz. I remember bringing it home, here in New Mexico, from Kentucky and it rode in the floorboard behind my seat cushioned by pillows and blankets with the arm locked down and tied. I had the cover in a separate, soft blanket so the thing was babied all the way here. To answer your question, I can not think of any event that might have triggered the slow speed. There have been no modifications other than the ones I have attempted to address this problem. I think @NoTransistors is more than likely correct, that only one of the field coils is operating but I'm not seeing any problem with continuity, both coils measure very similarly close to 340ohms so it has to be in the voltage supply somehow. I have not yet tried his suggestion of combining the green and black, orange and white leads and hooking it up to power that way because I'm not very confident I am understanding him clearly. I've asked for more information and will await his response. I'm tempted to get one of those Canadian idlers like @loudnoises has but am holding off throwing parts at it until I know more about whether of not that is actually needed. If, for instance, the wiring was somehow not done properly and a change will get both coils working and the table runs at speed with no problems, it will not be necessary to get a new idler wheel. I know it's difficult when you can't see what I'm seeing, but this idler looks really like a new one, is supple and the edge is grippy to my feel. There will be an answer and I'm pretty patient! Thanks for all your support amigo!

If you use the rubber renue ware gloves and for the love of god do it out side and let it off gas outside. Im sure you would get life in prison in California if you crossed state lines with a bottle of that stuff. I keep mine in zipper 2 bags in a tobacoo can inside another zipper bag. Nut cancer in a jar. I am not ever paranoid about most chemicals.

 

[tourmax]

I'm just a bit frustrated too at the moment because no matter what I do, I can't seem to get the motor to run at a sufficiently fast enough speed.....

Put it aside and walk away for a couple days.

Sometimes, you just "can't see the forest through the trees" and a couple days away often lets you see (or think of) things you just can't process in a frustrated state.

If it's not a table you need running to listen to records, take as long as you want to figure it out.

No need to be frustrated by it......life's too short.

 

[Fishead]

But did it work okay for your Dad in Germany (with a 220VAC outlet)? I presume you've also already looked at the thread?

I enlarged the connection box from the link if that helps.

Yes, I did see that over on VE and thank you for pointing to it.....

Oh man......I think I may have discovered a problem......I took a bunch of pictures of the power block wiring when I first took the motor apart on January 25 and I just went back and compared those to how I have it wired presently and while the order of the wires is still the same, the original configuration shows no wire on the post between the orange and white wires! Duh!!! The black wire originally was on the #7 post, the orange on #6, then skip #5, white wire on #4, green on #3, nothing on #2 and nothing on the #1 post, which is the ground post. Holy smokes!!! I'm going to go back in and rearrange things as they should be and will report back......I gotta say, though, that even when this table was wired correctly, it still ran slow because I had to set the pitch pointer to about 3 o'clock to get it to run at 33.3rpm.

To answer your question about whether or not if was playing at correct speed for my Dad in Germany on 220v, I don't know. I don't even know if it was playing at correct speed after he (they, Mom and Dad) moved to the states in 1986 as it was seldom used, my Dad having moved to CDs by then and brought only limited records from Germany with him. So it did a lot of sitting, that's for sure, and I do know that the voltage switch had been moved from 220 to 110v. I am POSITIVE that he would not have disturbed the wiring to the pins, simply moved the voltage selector switch so I have to think that the wires were attached between the motor and the power block at the Dual factory before he bought the table and the configuration has not been changed since......until, I screwed up and moved the black and the orange over one post.....

I will report back when I've finished putting things back as they were......I feel pretty dang dumb right about now!!! Sheeeesh!!!!

However......as I'm taking things apart now, I'm also thinking that those two wires, the black and orange, only come into play when the selector switch is set to 220v so there might still be no difference in the speed.....that is, might still run slow. We'll see in a few minutes......stay tuned

 

[Fishead]

OK, the picture tells the story: @NoTransistors was exactly right.....the motor was very likely only running on 1 of the 2 field coils due to the improper wiring!


This is with the idler wheel about as dead center on the 33rpm step as it can be, and the platter spins up to speed in only about 3-4 rotations, so not quite as strong as @loudnoises, but I'll take it! 45rpm shows 45.01, and 78 is at 77.9 and all is well in the Land Of Enchantment.....again!

I apologize to everyone for making such a stupid mistake and feel downright awful. I can only express my deep gratitude for all those who waded through this adventure with me and for that I am so thankful. I am also thankful that a mistake has revealed so much to me about this wonderful little table, and I know my Dad is up there smiling.....no, probably laughing his butt off and saying "you knucklehead, never taking your time and being careful, always in too much a hurry to get out on the river!!!" Well, I'm thankful for that as well because through it all, there was a smile on my lips thinking about all the times......rest easy, Dad, you are missed and would have loved this group of wonderful folks here on AudioKarma!

Carry on amigos......oh, and the W&F is much, much better now and I think I can dial it in a bit better once I "dress" that idler in a more proper, controlled sort of way. Just gotta wait for my buddy across the street with the drill press (and fabulous shop) to recover from his knee surgery enough for me to go over and set things up.